Northern white cedar from seed

[Jeff]

I collected some seed from the abundant cones on the Northern white Cedar this year. What is the odds that the seeds would be viable and is there info out there on preparing the seeds and propagating?

[farmerdoug]

Jeff,

All I know about cedar is around here the seeds start best on bare ground.  When the county digs a road ditch out next to some ceders it never fails to see hundreds of little cedars growing in the bare ditch the next year.

Doug

[SwampDonkey]

Expect around 30 -40% germination Jeff. That's what I was told awhile back by the folks at the Provincial Seed Centre. Alot of the seeds won't be fully developed.

[From the USDA Silvics Manual]
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/Volume_1/thuja/occidentalis.htm

Northern white-cedar seeds remain viable for 5 years or more when stored in sealed containers at 6 to 8 percent moisture content and 0° to 3° C (32° to 38° F). As a rule the seeds have only slight internal dormancy. Under forest conditions dormancy is broken while the seeds lie on the ground during the first winter; thus fall sowing is generally recommended

[If your going to germinate them inside Jeff, store the seed in a tupperware dish (sealed) for 3 weeks or so in the fridge (not the freezer unit). They are very slow to grow and when they open up and elongate beyond the cotyledon stage, they look like moss. They won't get their first true leaves until the second year. Mortality is high because they have to be kept moist, once the growing medium dries out they may well be toast.]

The seed seems to germinate best at high temperatures such as 29° C (84° F) , so that even though germination normally begins in May or June of the year following seed dispersal, it sometimes does not occur until late July or early August. Alternating day and night temperatures of 30° and 20° C (86° and 68° F), respectively, are recommended for germination tests.

Northern white-cedar seeds germinate readily on a variety of moist substrates, but seedlings become established on only a few. The main requirements for early development seem to be a constant moisture supply and warm temperatures . Although white-cedar generally grows best on neutral or slightly alkaline soil, seedlings do best on neutral or slightly acid soil but will grow on slightly alkaline soil.

Annual height growth averages only about 8 cm (3 in) during the first several years; seedlings can grow this much in 140 days under long photoperiods in growth chambers.

[Photoperiod is key. I believe they require 12-14 hrs a daylight for good growth. It's probably best to sow them outside this fall, mark he area and keep it weeded next year or transplant to pots with good loam soil containing lots of well rotted humous (black earth). I started some in the garden this way, but the weeds choked them out.] Maybe I can find one for a photo (if they aren't all dead), they were planted in 2000.]

Fraser, D. A. 1971. Interaction of gibberellic acid and photoperiod on reproductive and vegetative growth of white cedar seedlings (Thuja occidentalis L.). In Proceedings, Twelfth Meeting of Committee on Forest Tree Breeding in Canada, 1970. Pt. 2, p. 15-20. Canadian Forestry Service, Ottawa, ON.

Other links:
Thuja
Woody Seed Manual
Association of Official  Seed Analysts
International Seed Testing Association
I checked Steve Nix's site and he seems to be quoting the Silvics Manual as well.

[Jeff]

Good info Donk. Here's a good question for ya.  How many seeds to ya think are in a pound?     a gazillion?  I figure I have almost two lbs of just seeds. We got them just as the cones were releasing them.  put the bag under the clump of cones and shake a little.

[Tom]

Spruce Bunny used mice. 

[SwampDonkey]

Here's a good question for ya.  How many seeds to ya think are in a pound?

Congitates  a little










   Getting dizzy here...










   about...........

346,000 seeds/lb     read the thuja link. 

I did have a seed manual once with alot of good info, don't know where it walked to now. 

Ya know an easy way to get that number? or close enough. Just do a few counts of say 300 seeds, weigh'm and take an average. Then by proportions, get a good figure for seed count.

For example, if 300 seeds average 1/8 of an ounce and there are 16 oz to a pound....well you can do the math.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Spruce Bunny used mice. 

And the poor little buggers even removed the wings for her. 

[Tom]

Spruce Bunny is a Harsh Task Master.

[SwampDonkey]

A real slave driver. 

[Tom]

Then........  she shoots'em.

[SwampDonkey]

That's so they don't go back and tell the others where the stash is. Kind of like the Egyptians, doing in their slaves at burial sites, eh?

[SwampDonkey]

What a morbid bunch. 

[SPIKER]

hahah @ the mouse someplace I used to have an anamated gif of a mouse getting croaked by a broom.   wish I remembered where it was so I could put it in here. (probably was on the system that died last yer, (that mouse might have gotten it's revenge on the computer) 

Mark M

[sprucebunny]

 

I finally got them meeces to do something useful

Good luck with your cedar, Jeff. I'd like to have a gallon or so of cedar seeds to replace the stands that the  beavers drowned.

Sometimes I wonder how a forest gets to exist at all between the seeds being eaten/stashed, the moose eating/flattening saplings and the beavers flooding out good land and stripping it of aspen Then the porkypines climb up the trees and eat the bark.....  ....

[Jeff]

Sometimes I wonder how a forest gets to exist ....

Joan I'm glad you mentioned that.  I took a photo that sure helps to explain. I gotta think by sheer numbers.  We had that big snow while I was up bear hunting followed by a couple of breezy days.  EVERY INCH of the property looked like this. An almost even distribution of the seeds that were ready for release at that time.

[thecfarm]

I kinda wonder where the small cedar trees come from.I have many cedar trees,tall ones.My MIL wanted some cedar branches for a foral arrangement,no problem I can get some.I won't offer again.I went to 3-4 of my stands and went into the bog too.I hard a very hard time finding any that I could reach.I finally found a tree that had some low hanging braches and only enough for what she wanted.I doubt any of my cedar are less than 20 feet tall.

[Jeff]

Cedar has a tough time if there are any deer around.

[sprucebunny]

Don't deer often seek out evergreen stands for shelter in the winter It would seem a bad idea to eat the species that provide shelter

[Jeff]

Problem is it also provides food.  Same predicament I would be in if my hunting suit was made of cotton candy.

[VA-Sawyer]

I can just picture Jeff now.... sitting in his gun blind, wearing nothing but a gun and a big smile !

[SwampDonkey]

This is what to expect for the first 3 or 4 years Jeff.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=22123.0