RR tie sawing questions.

[Bibbyman]

Want's then 7x9 no over or under - as far as I know..

No holes that you could stick you finger into.

No rot. (He used a small pocket knife to peck at suspect places.)

Heart at least 1" inside edge.  Or no heart at all.  (Except for sycamore that has to have boxed heart.)

Double heart OK if both at least 1" inside edge.

1" max wane total. (must have 8" face)

No bark on faces.  No more than 3" of in-grown bark on a forked end - not to run out the face of the end.

No shorter than 9'-1" and no longer than 9'-5" - trimmed square with no spur or step.

Heart crack in end no longer than 3" and not out of edge and no wider than 1/4".

I'll try to get some pictures of those I thrown out.  I thought I'd keep them to the side and ask the buyer about them.

[Bibbyman]

Here are some pictures of ties I've put aside to ask the buyer about them.



This one has three ugly knot holes - all about 2" dia.  They are only about an inch deep.  Look like broken off, grown over limbs.



The one in the center has a "mouse hole" in the heart that runs deeper than the screwdriver that's on top of it.  The other two have the hearts run out of the end.

[Tom]

What is the reason for their not liking the heart-wood to show?   Is it because it doesn't take treatment, or that it is physically inferior?

A tie from an old tree might be difficult to obtain without including heart-wood.   I've sawed some old oaks that had only a couple of inches of sapwood on them.

[beenthere]

I'm thinkin Bibby means the pith when he says 'heart', and it not running out on a face. Tough to avoid heartwood (heart) on a face, I'd think.  Sometimes people talk about boxing the heart, and I take it as meaning the pith.

[Tom]

Yes, we have an abundance of Heart Check here that must be cut around. That's the crack that runs through the pith in a single line or a "Y" or a "+" or other confounded configuration that makes it difficult to get good lumber and a solid cant too.

One of the sawing techniques used by grade sawyers is to place the check at a 45 degree angle so that it can be trimmed from the edge of the boards.  It also helps to contain it in the cant (tie) since it runs from corner to corner rather than side to side.   There is more room for it there.

When sawing construction wood, we usually keep the heart check parallel to the blade so that we can enclose it and the pith in one or two boards. Since we are generally sawing through and through when we approach the ends of the check.

[PawNature]

I am Kinda like Bibby on this one. I had always heard the center refered to as Heart, never heard it called Pith till I strted loafing on here. I thought it was another DanG cuss word.

[Bibbyman]

What is the reason for their not liking the heart-wood to show?   Is it because it doesn't take treatment, or that it is physically inferior?

I talked with the buyer for probably an hour and he used the term "heart" quite a few times.  I can't recall him saying "pith" once.  I just figure "pith" was another one of those strange words people up north used or something that pine trees had. 

The reason he gave for not having the heart (or pith) break out of the tie is that it would season crack and let mosture into the tie.  Even when treated, it would shorten it's useful life.

[Tom]

Well knowing that you guys know, I feel a need to describe "Pith" for some that haven't been around a lot and might not know.

When a tree grows, it puts on layers, kind of like dipping a candle and building the wax up on the wick.  The center of the trunk is the path left by the growing bud (apical meristem), as it grows upwards by creating new cells stacked upon the old.  The rings are created by the cambium which resides just under the bark, and is responsible for creation of new bark as well as new xylem and phloem (the soda straws of the tree that carry nutrients).

A tree trunk has this weak, pencil-sized, or smaller, dark-colored streak in the center that is the trail of the growing bud and it has no strength at all.  The first 2 to 5 rings laid down outside of it are called "immature wood" and it lacks the strength of wood that is laid down on the outside of it.  That is why the pith and the inner few rings are culled/cut away when quarter-sawing.  They will crack and split. 

Heart wood was once sap wood.  It is dead sapwood.  It's purpose is hold the tree up.  Sometimes it carries liquids until the paths get plugged. Because the paths eventually get plugged, Heartwood doesn't take treatment very well, if at all.  It is also considered to be harder and more brittle than the living cells in the sapwood.

Sapwood is the living part of the tree and contains the xylem and phloem in functionally increasing amounts as you get closer to the outside of the tree and the Cambium layer.

Sapwood is the more flexible of the two and that is why it is usually used for handles and interior work.

The crack that develops in the center of the tree, bisecting the pith, is called the Heart check.  It is a fault that must be avoided or contained when sawing lumber or making timbers.

The crack that develops between the rings which looks like the rings are coming apart is called "Shake".  It can be caused by tremor, shock from hitting the ground, bacterial infection weakening the bonds between the rings or other reasons.  It is commonly called "wind shake" but is usually caused by bacterial infection.

When a board is laid on a deck with the pith side up, it may suffer from a malady that causes the rings to break away after the wood ages.  It leaves sharp shards of wood sticking up into the pathway of unsuspecting feet.  This type of "shake" is called "Shelling".  It can make a floor dangerous.  To avoid the danger, it is taught to keep the bark side up.  A rule that some of the old carpenters used was to let the rings shed the water.  If it were upside down like a bowl, it would hold the water and the board would rot.   I think that they were trying to make an impression on their help to make sure that shelling was avoided rather than worrying to much about the rotting of the wood.  It makes the rule easy to remember.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I am learning a lot about ties, here!
Thanks everyone, because its not a topic that I have had any reason to learn.
A friend recently mentioned a contact who had a couple of hundred small oaks on
some lots they wanted clear, so I may now have reason to get a grip on the topic.

It does seem that the objective related to what the tie buyer is calling "heart" is
really to control the weak center of the log, namely the pith and juvenile wood.
As Bibbyman was pointing out,  with sycamore, the goal is to have that
pith/juvenile center encased.   With other species, the goal is to either not include
this weak center wood at all, OR to neatly encase it in healthy, strong heart wood, or
a combination of sap and heart  (using heart wood here as Tom properly defined it).

The "heart check" begins in the weak center and can extend outward, due to rot or drying
effects.  The nature of the lignin/cellulose is different in juvenile wood, so stresses and
changes in  moisture create exaggerated results.   Cracking and "brash failure" under
stress are common examples.  That's why this wood is so useless.

Phil L.            Tom,  did you mean 90deg. to the blade or parallel with the blade.

[Tom]

I meant parallel to the blade.  brain burp!!

I'll go back and change it.

[Ron Wenrich]

You guys must have some pretty tough inspectors.  Ours want ties on to 1/4" over.  They don't want any under.  When the ties are taken to the mill, they are put through a timber sizer.  They make all ties consistant, and they also cut the tie face to help with the preservatives.  They also season the tie ahead of time.

As for the ends, they don't want any cracks that will impair the strength.  I always put my crack going across the widest side.  They won't be putting spikes across the crack.  They used to put S hooks across ties to prevent them from splitting.  Now they put those plates they use to build rafters across them.  They can hide more defect that way.

The bark has to be peeled so the tie will accept treament.  I can get away with some grub holes and shake has to be confined within the heart and not get any closer than 1" of the sides.  I don't saw too many shakey ties, but the sun will draw the shake out of them as they sit.  But, they plate the ends to hide it from their buyers.

Small loads are no problem.  I know of one guy that used to take 20 tie loads.  I don't know of anyone cutting quotas.  If they would try that, they wouldn't get any ties. 

[SawDust_Studios]

I contact a local wood preserving place today. I'm going down tomorrow or friday to talk with their tie buyer. I know the owner, as my mother taught him and his brothers in school, so that helps alot. 

He said to come down and they will show me what they want as it seems every buyer is a bit different.  They pay $21 for 7x9 oak and $18 for mixed hardwood. Something like $11 for 6x8's  Does that sound about right?

Its only about 15 minutes from the house and he will take small loads, so I can probably take 25-50 on my trailer.  What does a typical 7x9 weigh?  About 200lbs?  I have a 12k trailer, so I can haul 10k

[Dana]

I spoke with a representative from a tie company yesterday. He said they don't have any concentration yards here in Michigan. But, the can send up a rail car to within 100 or so miles of me. I would have to have enough ties to fill the car which is 300 to 500. No check from them until they see the ties at their facility and approve them.

[Ron Wenrich]

Oak typically weighs about 6 lbs/bf.  250-275 lbs would be more reasonable for the weight of a 7x9.

The price sounds about right for this area.  Our blocking prices are a little better than the 6x8 price.  We don't cut them.  My understanding is that the 6x8 goes to the subway systems.

[SawDust_Studios]

Pallet lumber around here is what, about $.37?  So, I would be a little better off make 2 4x6 cants instead of one 6x8 tie.  Is that correct?

[Ron Wenrich]

At $11 per 6x8, you are getting a little over $340/Mbf.  At $370, you're making 84 cents more to make the extra cut.  Delivery is the only thing to factor in.

I've found that if a tie would make a 6x8, it probably would have made either a 7x8 or a 7x9. 

[Kevin_H.]

I didn't want to start a whole new thread, so I will bring this one back up, I am looking for a tie buyer in So. Illinois.

The logger is starting 3  clearing jobs with small logs so we may try to turn them into ties, any leads would be great.

[Ron Wenrich]

Koppers has a plant in Illinois and one in Kentucky.  The Illnois plant is in Galesburg.  Contact information is:  http://www.koppers.com/htm/OurCo_Loca_US_Gales.html

The Kentucky plant is in Guthrie.  Contact info at:  http://www.koppers.com/htm/OurCo_Loca_US_Guthrie.html

You will need logs that are 12" and up on the small end. 

[Kevin_H.]

Roger Doger thank you for the info.

It will be interesting to see what we get in and what we can do with it.

[Bibbyman]

Hope you have a lot better luck than I've had. 

Besides not getting enough logs the right size, type and grade,  now we've got a good spot order for some oak barn siding that I can't aford to make the logs I have into ties that would make ties - or grade lumber for that matter.