Tom and Jeff's walk on the green side.

[Mark M]

Hello,

If you want to see the results of extreme clearcutting come up to North Dakota - Paul Bunyan came through here a while back and the place just ain't the same!  

Anyone who has ever lived near a logged-off popple stand knows the importance of clearcutting. Back in the 70's my dad and I did a select cut on some old aspen. He thought we were doing the right thing by getting rid of the big mature trees but now 30+ years later there isn't a single popple left. At the same time our neighbor did a clear cut on about 100 acres and today it is almost ready to harvest again.

The bad thing about environmentalists is the only qualification necessary is you have to be "concerned" about something. No training, experience, knowledge, or common sense required.

Mark

[Bro. Noble]

That HappyH guy had a saying at the bottom of his posts about calling each other vulgar names and then throwing stones at each other--------seems as if that's their goal.

Mark,
I hesitate to say this since I'm not one to try and change the topic but you have solved one of the questions I've worried about all my life-----------Where does that white color (all over the street and sidewalks and cars) come from after the snow melts.

Noble

[Ron Wenrich]

The only problem the environmentalists are having is they are asking the wrong questions.  One of the biggest things they are doing is trying to raise money, and they do a good job at that.  

You would have a rough time trying to raise cash if you didn't have something that people could either see or touch.  Clearcutting doesn't look good, so that lends some credence to their arguement and to the amount of money raised.  I've seen some of the pictures that they use to condemn clearcutting.  Some were salvage operations.  They didn't look good, but they didn't have much choice in the mgmt scheme.

If I were to manage for aspen in PA, I'd be laughed out of business.  There is no market for aspen right here.  Our cherry is prone to sap streak.  We have a very limited pine market.  Should markets dictate mgmt decisions or is it the other way around?

If I were an environmentalist, I would pose the question of how you can support even-aged mgmt on federal lands.  Clearcutting then becomes a secondary issue.  Clearcutting can be engineered to have a low immediate impact on the forest.

After you get past the superficial issues, the problems get a lot tougher.  As one guy told me, forest management isn't rocket science - it's a lot harder.

[OneWithWood]

Kudos, Don

Your last sentence said it all!

[Mark M]

Noble

I never worried too much about the white snow, it's the yellow snow I try to avoid.  

Mark

[Tom]

Should markets dictate mgmt decisions or is it the other way around?

It's just a personal opinion and has no basis anywhere but in my head; I think that Markets are created for product that is undiscovered.

It's easy to sell something that is required for existance.  If someone were able to get the corner on the "Air" inventory then he wouldn't have to develop much of a market.  That can be the same with some kinds of woods, pine in S.E.,  oak in the central states, Cedar in the west (?).  The management of Air would then dictate to the market.

If your land will grow poplar better than it will grow anything else then I think the effort should be spent in creating or finding a market. The market will justify the management of the tree.

If Cherry grows good but has flaws, then some enterprizing young fellow should find or create a market for "sap streaked cherry".  Without a market the tree is on its own. (kinda like a Geek at a homecoming dance)

There is no market for Pecky Cypress until someone creates one.  In the S.E. it is now a valuable product.

Mulch sells.  The market has trees being managed for its creation.

Stumps make tables and gunstocks.

Blue stained pine becomes "Denim"(?)

Dotey aromatic cedar becomes valuable table tops.

Magnolia, not a commercially grown wood, carries a high price because someone "sold" it.  The Market is unavailability.

Without a market, there is little appreciated value.  Without value, management is directed elsewhere.

Demerol l

[Bro. Noble]

I toldya that was gonna happen  Hang in there Tom,  say Hi to those little green men.

I think that markets should help determine management on private land.  I do think,however, that owners of private land have the moral responsibility to protect the environment.  A person also has to remember that markets change.

On public land the rules are different.  There are many different purposes for public forests.  I do think that those responsible for managing public lands should see that OUR timber isn't wasted or burned because of not managing it while meeting the goals of the particular tract of land.

Noble

[Tom]

Don Staples has written a wonderful response on the new thread about water management that has recently appeared on the same forum as the clear cutting thread.

[Dennis]

i went through a couple pages of this thread, as well as the link to the "Walk"...I never heard anyone mention the Bowron Clearcut...or did I miss it?  For those who haven't heard of it, it is the largest clearcut in the world.  One of the few manmade objects that can be seen from space.  I presume at one time it looked pretty nasty...but I travel by it a couple times a year as it is about 3 1/2 hours from my house on a major highway.  I can honestly say it looks good(now)...the trees are growing great...the animals are in abundance...don't get me wrong...I am not saying that everything should be clearcut...but I am saying...that I have no problem with them when necessary.   We have a very large bug problem in our valley...and the only thing keeping them at bay, is clearcutting the infestations...there are other measures being taken..such as traptree cutting and burning...etc..(as you can tell I am not a forester so I don't know all the lingo, or actions being taken.)  I am only stating that it(clearcutting) is a means that is sometimes necessary in timber harvesting.

[Tom]

That's good advice, Dennis.  It doesn't matter that you study a subject until you are an expert.  It does matter that you listen to others who have made it their life's work and that you keep an open mind.

The problem with most of these ultra-leftwinged environmental whackos is that they have selected a "cause" and close their mind.  That's why they don't state specifics in an argument, they don't know anything.

[Ron Scott]

How many acres is the Bowron Clearcut?

[Jeff]

Here is a link to an article, it says 50,000 ha what ever that translates to.

http://www.gis.unbc.ca/webpages/webnew/projects/course_projects/geog432/2002/newse000/

[Ron Scott]

If 1 hectacre is 2.47 acres ; then 50,000 ha is 123,500 acres ?? Some clearcut.

[Ron Wenrich]

Niche markets are nice for what would normally be a waste product.  I suspect that some of the swings in favor of certain woods has a lot to do with price and availability.

In the early 1970s, you couldn't give red oak away.  We had a bad recession in '74 and then red oak took off.  Consumer demands were different afterwards and open grained species were more profitable.  Now, we are going back to the closed grain species.

Eventually, those demands will exhaust supply and price will increase to where the consumer seeks lower price replacement.  Good for economics, but not necessarily good for managing forests.

With that thinking, you could justify high-grading a species since markets will take care of the next forest succession.

[Paul_H]

Dennis,
Did you ever live in Squamish?

[Tom]

Isn't it funny that it seems that the moderator of that enviro site is getting a belly full of the Whacko's?  

[Jeff]

Pretty funny.

[Don P]

I read this today ... ...

"had to get some firewood and found a great tree so i backed my rig to it and fired up the saw. cleared some ropes away and pile of trash below it. started cuttin and i keep hearing some noises up above but i figure its just after effects of canadian beer or maybe some magpies. then come some forest service guys and even a sheriff and they keep pointin up at the tree. i tell em to back off and wave my saw at em. i sez i know its a G Dam tree and its mine so bug off. i start cuttin again and they keep yelling about a freakin moth or a butterfly or somthing so i wave my saw at em again and they back off. all the while these cashews and almonds are fallin from the tree and even a granola bar hits me on the head. i thought it was a big doug fir but maybe its a hybrid nut tree - no matter - the tree is startin to lean so i stand back and one of these would be tree thieves sez there is a luna butterfly or something up there on a platform. i give the guy a shove and tell him the dam butterfly knows how to fly and if he wants my tree he's gonna hafta come thru my saw to get it. im gettin really *pithed now. so after all this distraction i get the
tree fallin and they are runnin around as i'm limbing the tree and fighting them off at the same time. i finally got em to go to the top of the downed tree and tell them if they want they can have the dam branches. so then they back a freakin ambulance up to the top and start sawing a few branches and then take off with sirens wailing. they musta just wanted the top which is stupid and a waste too. if that was an elk it woulda been wanton waste and they would have to write themselves a fine. lucky i was there to use the rest of the tree. people like that disturb me. I got my wood and went home and had a BUD. "