Author Topic: Tom and Jeff's walk on the green side. (Read 7193 times)

Jeff · « **on:** January 04, 2003, 03:12:30 pm »

Tom and I went for a walk. I stepped on the wire while Tom stepped across. Man its wild over here. Seems all Gods creatures have thier heads stuck between trees. All these narrow minds stuck in great big fat heads. They walk around not understanding how wide thier heads are and WHAM. They get thier oversized melon stuck. What do you do?

Actually we been playing over at the enviro site at about.com

I will leave the link here. I warn you there are pop ups galore and they will ask you to register. You can find the link that says guest entry and use that to get in to read.

I don't plan on posting anymore, butcha never know.

I wrote Tom after his last post and said:

Bravo Mr Tom. I am so proud I could crap purple penguins. You will have no effect on the person that the message this is pointed at but you certainly left an important message for those that do have reasoning power higher than a cucumber. I applaud you.

Here is the link if you want to step across too Be prepared for a long read,.I'll keep my foot on the wire till you get back across.

Clearcutting: Good, Bad, or Ugly?

Frank_Pender · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2003, 03:19:06 pm »

Jeff, I resemble those last three words, but I will go to the site anyhow.

Paul_H · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2003, 05:02:22 pm »

You both had good solid responses,but they seem to fall on deaf ears over there.Tom made a great point in that they would rather complain,than come up with solutions.

Extreme Green groups sell fear.No hope,only fear.

Moderation in all things!

Tillaway · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2003, 07:59:06 pm »

You did good Tom. Fortunately I think that way of thinking "Genna" is losing its appeal with almost everyone.

Tom · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2003, 08:05:09 pm »

:Thank!

I hope it is losing its appeal. I don't think I could stay in the room long with someone like that. How in the world do they go through life with blinders like that?

It's not that they are right or wrong but that they don't say anything. :-/

Tillaway · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2003, 08:41:39 pm »

Tom,
You can not "win" any discussion with folks like that. When pressed for solutions thay can't offer any because they really DonT have any depth of knowledge in any scientific or environmental fields. Try asking one what is specifically is required for Northern Spotted Owls to nest, or what is deer browse and how would you go about creating more of it.

Near as I can tell,and I used to read allot of enviro trash, is that no matter what you do or how light on the land you are it is the fact that you are making a profit (money) from it that they dislike. You are a villain for wanting to better yourself and family. Basically they want to drag you down to thier level. Look at every discussion with them and greed, profit and corporations are mentioned every time.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2003, 10:14:19 pm »

I went, I saw, I spoke, dumped on their front lawn, and wont be back.

Chet · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2003, 06:26:57 am »

It's tough to have an intelligent conversation when only one side has any intelligence or common sense.

But it was a good try guys.

RMay · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2003, 10:03:57 am »

Way to go Tom it is about time tree farmers spoke up to groups like that .

Kevin_H. · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2003, 12:19:37 pm »

Wow that was interesting.
Isn't funny how someone can type pages and pages and never really say or answer anything.
and then to have a comeback like, well you dress funny!

I hope that the someone who is sitting on the fence reads those threads and see's the effort that people like Tom, Jeff and Don put into the forest's.

Now I feel guilty for not planting any trees last year.

Minnesota_boy · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2003, 03:05:44 pm »

Don't feel too guilty, I transplanted about 20 white spruce from the road ditch where they were about to be mowed off for us.

L. Wakefield · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2003, 03:10:12 pm »

yes, that's what I did with some balm of Gilead- saved from certain death. Unfortunately, I hadn't brought wirecutters with me- don't think of them as standard tree-snitching tools- and the saplings were all among a downed section of fence. Balm-of-Gilead srputs from roots, so I had both wire and thick root sections to hack thru with a mattock- I coulda used wire-cutters and a saw to dull savagely in cutting those roots..lw

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2003, 09:01:22 pm »

I lied, I went back. Probably banned for life.

Jeff · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2003, 01:47:14 am »

Yea, they sent me an invitiation to see that one . WOW

Tom · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2003, 08:03:47 am »

Good Show, Don.

They get your ire up, don't they?

I wasn't going to go back either but they keep sending me this little message that the wacko answered me and I've got the curiosity of a six week old kitten.

They make you want to take a walk on the wild side with a baseball bat and a tennis racket. Then after listening to their garbage and nonsense you want to swap for a shotgun and 50 cal. mach. gun. Then they start some serious name-callin..... Where's my tank?...... Where's my tank?......

I can certainly understand,now, how their "peaceful" demonstrations always seem to get violent. :-/

Tom · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2003, 01:46:26 pm »

So, that's how they do it. They lose their cool, call everybody names, the hall monitor gets onto them and erases their messages and it looks like they have been all calm, cool and collected now. hmmmm They still don't show me much, I was there.

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2003, 10:02:44 pm »

Jeff and Tom and Don and Ron,

I'm proud to know you guys. I do think you did some good and opened some eyes. The eco-freek-dude may not admit to learning anything, but at least he appears to realize that he has been overpowered in the smarts dept. All in all I think you showed a lot of patience with the moron. Don even cooled down and came back with a terrific conclusion.

Noble

swampwhiteoak · « **Reply #17 on:** January 07, 2003, 06:15:56 am »

You guys did a very reserved job trying to explain yourselves, it's too bad that there isn't much inbetween a certain Gennaman's ears. Hopefully any resonable people reading that discussion will come out more educated.

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #18 on:** January 07, 2003, 06:49:46 am »

I checked back over there to see if Gennaman ever came back. There was a new post and I thought 'Oh Brother , that guy doesn't know when he's licked'. I was surprised to find a new player-----one who you guys that have a key to the door might want to consider inviting over here.

Noble

Tom · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2003, 07:09:19 am »

If I invited anybody from there to over here, I would do it by EMail. I sure wouldn't post an URL on that site.

Could you imagine what this place would turn into if those nuts came over here spewing their noxious fumes and trying to pick a fight?

They wouldn't be over here trying to convert us, you know. They can't do that because they never say anything. I don't welcome their general population.

Forester Frank · « **Reply #20 on:** January 07, 2003, 08:46:34 am »

Now I gotta go check this out for myself! I will try to keep an open mind, so I don't get my head stuck.

Don P · « **Reply #21 on:** January 07, 2003, 09:47:39 am »

Hey, Franks back!
I saw that other fellow's post this morning...seems like a good guy. Guys like the loudmouth over there are sure a piece of work. Some folks were put here to be insightful...others seem to have misunderstood and are merely inciteful

.
Another forum I go to...went to..I ran into a jerk like that about a week ago. There was a calm, well spoken forester from England that got thrashed too and I haven't seen him back there either. They think they've "won" if you walk away in disgust I guess.

Phil · « **Reply #22 on:** January 07, 2003, 10:26:46 am »

Maybe we're not giving those folks enough credit. Maybe we really SHOULD consider ourselves on equal ground with all the little chipmunks and darters and dung beetles. We could all hold hands and sing that Coca-Cola song ("I'd like to buy the world a Coke...") and all the environmental problems, as well as the political problems, would just solve themselves. All I'm saying is give Joni Mitchell a chance.

Just kidding.

Y'all did good over there. (Note to myself: don't tick Don Staples off.)

Phil

Jeff · « **Reply #23 on:** January 07, 2003, 12:44:16 pm »

Don P we could always use a calm, well spoken forester from England on this forum. You should go invite him. Maybe we can get him to calm Staples down.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2003, 03:16:51 pm »

I resemble that remark! Actually, I was cold when all that happened, you sometimes neet to hit them in the head before they pay attention. But this dude wont pay attention, and continues with the more or less racist view of Native Americans. And is dirt dumb on clear cutting and timber management in general. But like some one else posted, I post to these dudes for the lurkers, not for the poster. You can never tell who may take a second look at some belief or the other and actually attempt to learn from it.

In other words, y'all are safe, I am a puddytat (a fat cat if I don't lose some a this Christmas and New Years party residue) when it comes to the web and folks that talk, and joke, with out taking offense to every little thing, who ask questions, who debate, and reasonably intelligent about it.

Just lay off grandma.

Jeff · « **Reply #25 on:** January 07, 2003, 03:48:26 pm »

Did you go back and see the post FROM a native american? I wonder what the guide for the enviroforum is thinking. Not a word from her.

JeffS · « **Reply #26 on:** January 07, 2003, 03:59:34 pm »

I have just finished reading the entire list of postings on this site and I tell you I can't believe the stupidity and ignorance of people like that who think that we can go through life without having ANY effect on the world. Com'n we all know that we are going to leave a foot print, we try to keep that print as light as possible. Trees need to be cut, minerals need to be mined, oil needs to be drilled. I wonder if any of those "Ecofreaks" realize that the electricity that powers the computers that they use to communicate with other idiots to fight agains such said topics is generated by what they fight agains. They are probably sitting in a wooden chair at a wooden desk complaining of the trees that are cut. And then they walk out into thier 1/5 acre yard and dump tons of fertilizers on it which are actually the leading cause of stream deterioration that they blame on logging. Oh and I forgot to mention the rubber and petrochemical run off from their paved driveways that someone clearly pointed out..

God loves idiots and ass holes.. he must, because he sure made enough of them.

Jeff S

JeffS · « **Reply #27 on:** January 07, 2003, 04:00:47 pm »

I forgot to mention the tissue that they use to wipe their tears when they heard that we cut another tree....

Jeff S

Jeff · « **Reply #28 on:** January 07, 2003, 04:06:25 pm »

I think this is a good place for a link for folks reading this thread that have not read "Trees are the answer" by Patrick Moore, one of the founders of Green Peace.

http://www.greenspirit.com/trees_answer/

Tillaway · « **Reply #29 on:** January 07, 2003, 04:44:16 pm »

"Her" name is Mike. He replied to the post from the guy in southern Oregon (NA). He did not comprehend but accepted his input as different.

He completly missed the the history lesson contained.

Mr Staples and all here that posted, "You have preformed well grasshopper."

Tom · « **Reply #30 on:** January 07, 2003, 05:32:37 pm »

Jeff,

The guide on the site did get envolved. She got onto Geneman for calling names and actually wrote in a big red letters. Then her post and the offending posts were removed so it looked like nobody had lost their cool. That's what I was referring to in my post above. I guess it's the only way to handle the problem but it makes it easier on the Prosecution to have the judge tell the jury. "ignore the last three remarks."

Jeff · « **Reply #31 on:** January 07, 2003, 05:45:18 pm »

Dang! I miss all the good stuff that other people gotta clean up.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #32 on:** January 07, 2003, 09:31:48 pm »

Jeff B, I had not seen Patrick Moores monolog, great, with a history as diverse as his, it is a hard sell in gentle words. Perhaps I need to take note.

Jeff · « **Reply #33 on:** January 08, 2003, 02:10:10 am »

I went bak with pictures.

Nothin like a good view of a clearcut on a frosty morning.

Norm · « **Reply #34 on:** January 08, 2003, 04:57:05 am »

I read Mr. Moores' monolog with some interest, he seems to talk out of both side of his mouth as they say. While it's ok to harvest trees, baby seals are out of the question. That was Greenpeace's way of getting publicity for fund raising, nothing else. His assertion that most farmland would regenerate into forest is only true in some areas, here in the midwest we had very few trees when it was settled in the early 1800's, mostly prairie grasses that burned off every year or so. Sod houses were popular because there wasn't enough wood to make many houses.

Most of the enviro crowd seems to think that man is not part of nature but somehow above it. I believe that you could replace the word nature with God. I live in his beauty everyday and am thankful for it.

Whew, that felt good to get that off my chest, I better get off my soapbox, I'm afraid of heights.

shades · « **Reply #35 on:** January 08, 2003, 07:31:02 am »

well this is the first time i've been on here in two weeks (christmas,and all). what a thread to come back to. i've spent two + hours reading and i've got to say i've learned something. you guys know your stuff. i learned about the warbler and the aspen etc. from them i learned that they talk to much and say nothing. to jeff tom and the rest thank you for letting the rest of us see your handy work.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #36 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:04:04 am »

Norm F, yes, seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth, yet it also shows the evolution of the mans thinking on the environment. I am of the generation where I don't need to kill the buck every year, but instead am teaching the young about hunting, ethics, responsibility, etc. My views have changed over the years, more of a conservationist than I was, but still not in the environmental freak stage. Moore may be evolving along similar lines. More to conservation rather than ecofreak preservation.

Time will tell.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #37 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:40:24 am »

Mr. Moore's evolution from radical activist to a promoter of sustainability renews my faith in the intelligence of man. I only wish more people were as open minded and realistic about the state of things.

Jeff, thank-you for the link. I will use it as I try to explain to some why utilizing renewable resources is a much more ecological and sane way to procede than bowing to misguided public opinion and relying totally on non-renewable resources.

Tom, Don, Frank, et. al., three cheers for your defense of common sense

Skully · « **Reply #38 on:** January 09, 2003, 06:21:23 pm »

Nice try guys, but logic does not work with the extreme greenies.

I would just like to know what educational background they have to support thier views!!!

I just want to ask them to take a silviculture class or even a forest ecology class.

Dan

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #39 on:** January 10, 2003, 10:15:16 am »

Actually, some of these guys do have a pretty good education. I've seen some with natural resource degrees and could hold up their end pretty well.

I've also seen some that are tree specialists. One guy has taken all kinds of courses with Dr. Shigo. Unfortunately, he can't quite get the difference between single tree management and forest management where we are working with the interrelationship of trees.

Others are just repeating what they have read or heard from other sources. One person was claiming that soft pines mature in 5-10 years and gave the source. Everyone pointed out that this isn't true, but they wouldn't back off their stance. That is shear bullheadedness and shows the Emperor has no clothes.

I've noticed one underlying method in their attitudes. They will always take the offense. They will never defend their position, just say that the other side is wrong. As you defend your position, they will come up with another point that you have to prove wrong or defend. They also resort to a lot of name calling and flaming. I try not to stoop to that level.

I also don't put out my political views, if at all possible. I'm not debating anyone else's views other than my own. I believe I have come to them in a logical manner and it makes sense to me. I also practice what I preach.

I also believe there is a lot of room for improvement in the way forest management is being practiced today.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #40 on:** January 10, 2003, 12:48:14 pm »

Ron, I agree with most of what you say, but, some of them start and stay with a false premise that they defend, as you say, by changing the subjet. They are in the arena shouting loud and long, and sooner or later some one will believe and pick up the cry. We need to be there to point and laugh at such things. I agree that we should not get personal, flame, or what ever. But the temptation can be to great when they are so obviously out of line.

I went back and read some of the follow ups after I left the discussion. One guy took some one elses statement out of text (NA's burning the prairie) and extrapolated the entire prairie was the result of NA burning. Many have no depth of knowledge on any subject, much less the environment. I can tolerate the give and take of ideas and discussion, but on some occaisions the pure nonsense gets to great and I lash out. My bad.

There is a WHOLE

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #41 on:** January 10, 2003, 12:49:48 pm »

DanG it, pushed the wrong button.

There is a WHOLE log to improve in management. We know what it is, but have DanG little success in selling it.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #42 on:** January 10, 2003, 12:51:42 pm »

One more try before I give up.

There is a WHOLE lot of improvement, etc.

Jeff B, we need to be able to edit or replies after we post them. I never catch my screw ups till they post.

Scott · « **Reply #43 on:** January 10, 2003, 12:54:34 pm »

Hi guys. I agree with you guys in that clearcutting is not as bad as it seems. as far as ground disturbance clearcuts often leave less damage than a cable skidder operation. Still i'm not a fan of clearcutting. Around here is always done for profit. I also think some area should just plain be left alone. for example there is a 300 year old tract of pine in my area. The stand has never been touched with a saw but lately a lumber giant has been trying to clear it. It doesn't seem right to me as this guy has hundreds of thousands of acres his operations could work on. Also you mentioned that clearcutting can be used to bennefit wildlife. I agree with you but many loggers cut areas that disturb wildlife. Like the spirit bear. Sorry if you don't agree i just see things a little differently i guess.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #44 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:13:13 pm »

Don,

To do an edit:

Hit "Modify" button to the right.

Make the changes wanted on reply

Hit "Save" button below.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #45 on:** January 10, 2003, 03:55:21 pm »

Yes, Don, it is hard to sit back and bite your lip, but, eventually they'll make a fool out of themselves. Then they'll self destruct and you can sit back and laugh.

I'm always amazed at how seemingly intelligent people can take a few facts and extrapolate a "truth" from it. Makes you wonder about some of the other truths that are out there.

Scott

I'm not a big proponent of clearcuts. I think we have to worry about getting a stand to maturity before we worry about eliminating a current stand. But, given the amount of high grading, I'm not so sure that clearcutting isn't better than that.

I've only recommended a few clearcuts. One was a salvage operation after a gypsy moth infestation.

But, I wouldn't want to lose it as a management tool.

Scott · « **Reply #46 on:** January 10, 2003, 06:04:27 pm »

Ron W, I agree in salvage jobs clearing is nessasary (blow downs, spruce budworm, etc). However for the bennefit of a healthy forest it is usually better to do a well thought out selective cut.
I realize that you guys are arguing from the standpoint of responsible loggers and foresters. Most people however are probably used to the loggers who don't care about anything but money. In the past five years there have been 12 groups working in my area. I'd say two of these actually cared about the local people or the enviroment. It's kind of discouraging really. Keep up the good work.

CHARLIE · « **Reply #47 on:** January 10, 2003, 09:52:24 pm »

Tom told me about the posts with those treehugger whackos the night he and Jeff wrote their first replies. I went out and read all that was there and it was pretty evident that the whackos were only using emotion and sarcasm and Tom and Jeff were using facts. In fact, if I recall, Wacko #1, a Mr. Gennaman, even admitted that he uses what other people say and twist it around into sarcastic statements. Now to me...he showed his colors and anyone that would listen to that guy after what he admitted, has rocks in their bellfry .....hmmmm or is that bells in their thickhead.

I think Tom and Jeff did a fine job and didn't let the guy ruffle their feathers (that's what he was after). They stayed cool and stuck to the facts. Great job.

Now I'd like to see what the Texan said but I can't get past the deleted note number 11. Can someone tell me how to progress to note number 12?

JeffS · « **Reply #48 on:** January 11, 2003, 04:07:56 am »

In order to pass the deleted items I had to scroll down to the bottom of the page and select a page further ahead and back up from there. I believe the area is marked "navagating this post" or something of the sort.

Jeff S

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #49 on:** January 11, 2003, 04:39:02 am »

Scott

We must have the same loggers working in our area. There is only a handful that do very good management work.

But, the thinning idea only works so far. Clearcuts are not practiced very much, except on state lands. Thinnings usually occur in the sawtimber diameters, with very little coming from the smaller stems. About half of the timber is removed using diameter limit cutting, and I suspect even some of the thinnings are more like diameter limit cuts.

The problem is that a lot of these thinnings are nothing more than high grading. Those are even worse than clearcuts, since the timber allowed to remain is usually low grade, poor form, and poor species. These are genetic and economic clearcuts, but they look nicer.

Constant thinning will lead to a stand that is predominantly tolerant species. Sometimes that's OK, sometimes not.

I prefer to see small clearcuts in a stand that will allow for small patches of differing age amd specie development. Shelterwood cuts are a good way in creating natural regeneration, followed by a clearcut to release the young growth, if you want to keep and even-aged forest.

Jeff · « **Reply #50 on:** January 11, 2003, 05:35:46 am »

Scott, I totally agree with you. Anybody that cares about this resource and industry will. Loggers that blow down timber for only profit with no concience or thoughts to the resource or environment are in my book, worthless.

Years ago when we started settling this country form east to west and took the resources as we went, we new no better. I don't ever regret the actions of our forefathers though as the path they took is what made our country the strong country it is today.

We have learned from those past mistakes and know better now. I do understand why some of the wackos are wackos. In a way I think they are good. They keep us in check.

Now I am sure somebody is going to not like MY last sentence.

Jeff · « **Reply #51 on:** January 11, 2003, 05:39:35 am »

Quote

One more try before I give up.

There is a WHOLE lot of improvement, etc.

Jeff B, we need to be able to edit or replies after we post them. I never catch my screw ups till they post.

One post here off topic.

Don, you can and always have had the ability to edit your own post. Look for the modify button on your posts.

DanG · « **Reply #52 on:** January 11, 2003, 06:33:37 pm »

Jeff, I, for one, ain't gonna argue with your last statement. Our society is based on a system of checks and balances, and it has always taken a degree of extremism to get anything done. Take the issue of race, for instance. It is arguably the biggest controversy we have faced, in our lifetime, and was sorted out by extremists. There was MLK, and Malcolm X, vs George Wallace and Lester Mattox. All were extremists, but the solution, and it is still developing, has come out to be pretty fair to all. I think the issues that the Greenies bring up are valid, in that they make the public think about environmental matters, and inspire people to educate themselves on the subject. It is up to those of us who understand the ins and outs of the business to temper their extreme statements with facts. Regardless of evidence to the contrary, the public is NOT, chiefly, made up of idiots. It will take a while, but, fact and truth will prevail, in the long run.

Tom · « **Reply #53 on:** January 13, 2003, 05:41:20 pm »

genneman answered a post and I had to respond. When I finally got it typed and posted there were 4 or 5 posts ahead of me. Guess you have to stand in line over there now.

Tillaway · « **Reply #54 on:** January 13, 2003, 07:41:05 pm »

I thought about jumping in but its pretty well covered. Looks like quite a few posts have been pulled. Why do those folks have to jump into name calling? Pretty childish... thats why I think that type of enviromental trash talk is losing favor with the public. It doesn't matter what your qualifications are, they will not be good enough.

I hope there are quite a few lurkers there, they can get a good education.

Bill Johnson · « **Reply #55 on:** January 14, 2003, 09:48:54 am »

I went over and read the whole thread. You guys should get a medal for the restraint you showed trying to get your points across to someone who obviously did not want to listen.

I'd say if he wants to see clearcuts to come up here where most of ours range from 30 ha (74 acres) to sometimes in excess of 500 ha (1200+ acres) but then again we have enough of our own to deal with.

Any way good job guys.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #56 on:** January 15, 2003, 03:24:05 pm »

OK. I lied, I'm weak. I went back.

http://forums.about.com/ab-environment/messages?msg=1426.5&redirCnt=1

Tillaway · « **Reply #57 on:** January 15, 2003, 05:09:36 pm »

Quote

We are the environmentalist. You are the cross we bare.

I like it.... got to write that down.

Tom · « **Reply #58 on:** January 15, 2003, 05:27:31 pm »

You're alright, Don. Kick'em when their down!

C_Miller · « **Reply #59 on:** January 15, 2003, 07:24:09 pm »

Guys ya done good!!!

The thing about "them" that struck me first was a couple of the names "Happy Humanist" and some Atheist guy, not to mention the guy whose name sounded a bit like "Gehanna".

These folks have no Diety that they acknowledge let alone follow. They seem to think they are the epitome of knowledge and anyone that disagrees is beneath them and how dare they question their judgement. Because if someone did actually know something they did not, Mt. Olympus would be cast into the sea.

It's tough winning an arguement with a self proclaimed god.
DanG that Adam and Eve!! Stupid Darwin didn't help either.

This has been a Metaphysical moment brought to you by the History Channel.

C

Mark M · « **Reply #60 on:** January 16, 2003, 07:28:37 am »

Hello,

If you want to see the results of extreme clearcutting come up to North Dakota - Paul Bunyan came through here a while back and the place just ain't the same!

Anyone who has ever lived near a logged-off popple stand knows the importance of clearcutting. Back in the 70's my dad and I did a select cut on some old aspen. He thought we were doing the right thing by getting rid of the big mature trees but now 30+ years later there isn't a single popple left. At the same time our neighbor did a clear cut on about 100 acres and today it is almost ready to harvest again.

The bad thing about environmentalists is the only qualification necessary is you have to be "concerned" about something. No training, experience, knowledge, or common sense required.

Mark

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #61 on:** January 16, 2003, 07:55:07 am »

That HappyH guy had a saying at the bottom of his posts about calling each other vulgar names and then throwing stones at each other--------seems as if that's their goal.

Mark,
I hesitate to say this since I'm not one to try and change the topic but you have solved one of the questions I've worried about all my life-----------Where does that white color (all over the street and sidewalks and cars) come from after the snow melts.

Noble

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #62 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:01:54 am »

The only problem the environmentalists are having is they are asking the wrong questions. One of the biggest things they are doing is trying to raise money, and they do a good job at that.

You would have a rough time trying to raise cash if you didn't have something that people could either see or touch. Clearcutting doesn't look good, so that lends some credence to their arguement and to the amount of money raised. I've seen some of the pictures that they use to condemn clearcutting. Some were salvage operations. They didn't look good, but they didn't have much choice in the mgmt scheme.

If I were to manage for aspen in PA, I'd be laughed out of business. There is no market for aspen right here. Our cherry is prone to sap streak. We have a very limited pine market. Should markets dictate mgmt decisions or is it the other way around?

If I were an environmentalist, I would pose the question of how you can support even-aged mgmt on federal lands. Clearcutting then becomes a secondary issue. Clearcutting can be engineered to have a low immediate impact on the forest.

After you get past the superficial issues, the problems get a lot tougher. As one guy told me, forest management isn't rocket science - it's a lot harder.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #63 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:55:52 am »

Kudos, Don

Your last sentence said it all!

Mark M · « **Reply #64 on:** January 16, 2003, 10:44:02 am »

Noble

I never worried too much about the white snow, it's the yellow snow I try to avoid.

Mark

Tom · « **Reply #65 on:** January 16, 2003, 11:26:59 am »

Quote

Should markets dictate mgmt decisions or is it the other way around?

It's just a personal opinion and has no basis anywhere but in my head; I think that Markets are created for product that is undiscovered.

It's easy to sell something that is required for existance. If someone were able to get the corner on the "Air" inventory then he wouldn't have to develop much of a market. That can be the same with some kinds of woods, pine in S.E., oak in the central states, Cedar in the west (?). The management of Air would then dictate to the market.

If your land will grow poplar better than it will grow anything else then I think the effort should be spent in creating or finding a market. The market will justify the management of the tree.

If Cherry grows good but has flaws, then some enterprizing young fellow should find or create a market for "sap streaked cherry". Without a market the tree is on its own. (kinda like a Geek at a homecoming dance)

There is no market for Pecky Cypress until someone creates one. In the S.E. it is now a valuable product.

Mulch sells. The market has trees being managed for its creation.

Stumps make tables and gunstocks.

Blue stained pine becomes "Denim"(?)

Dotey aromatic cedar becomes valuable table tops.

Magnolia, not a commercially grown wood, carries a high price because someone "sold" it. The Market is unavailability.

Without a market, there is little appreciated value. Without value, management is directed elsewhere.

Demerol l

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #66 on:** January 16, 2003, 01:09:41 pm »

I toldya that was gonna happen

Hang in there Tom, say Hi to those little green men.

I think that markets should help determine management on private land. I do think,however, that owners of private land have the moral responsibility to protect the environment. A person also has to remember that markets change.

On public land the rules are different. There are many different purposes for public forests. I do think that those responsible for managing public lands should see that OUR timber isn't wasted or burned because of not managing it while meeting the goals of the particular tract of land.

Noble

Tom · « **Reply #67 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:21:05 pm »

Don Staples has written a wonderful response on the new thread about water management that has recently appeared on the same forum as the clear cutting thread.

Dennis · « **Reply #68 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:56:56 pm »

i went through a couple pages of this thread, as well as the link to the "Walk"...I never heard anyone mention the Bowron Clearcut...or did I miss it? For those who haven't heard of it, it is the largest clearcut in the world. One of the few manmade objects that can be seen from space. I presume at one time it looked pretty nasty...but I travel by it a couple times a year as it is about 3 1/2 hours from my house on a major highway. I can honestly say it looks good(now)...the trees are growing great...the animals are in abundance...don't get me wrong...I am not saying that everything should be clearcut...but I am saying...that I have no problem with them when necessary. We have a very large bug problem in our valley...and the only thing keeping them at bay, is clearcutting the infestations...there are other measures being taken..such as traptree cutting and burning...etc..(as you can tell I am not a forester so I don't know all the lingo, or actions being taken.) I am only stating that it(clearcutting) is a means that is sometimes necessary in timber harvesting.

Tom · « **Reply #69 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:19:42 pm »

That's good advice, Dennis. It doesn't matter that you study a subject until you are an expert. It does matter that you listen to others who have made it their life's work and that you keep an open mind.

The problem with most of these ultra-leftwinged environmental whackos is that they have selected a "cause" and close their mind. That's why they don't state specifics in an argument, they don't know anything.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #70 on:** January 17, 2003, 06:43:45 pm »

How many acres is the Bowron Clearcut?

Jeff · « **Reply #71 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:08:06 pm »

Here is a link to an article, it says 50,000 ha what ever that translates to.

http://www.gis.unbc.ca/webpages/webnew/projects/course_projects/geog432/2002/newse000/

Ron Scott · « **Reply #72 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:31:27 pm »

If 1 hectacre is 2.47 acres ; then 50,000 ha is 123,500 acres ?? Some clearcut.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #73 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:28:32 am »

Niche markets are nice for what would normally be a waste product. I suspect that some of the swings in favor of certain woods has a lot to do with price and availability.

In the early 1970s, you couldn't give red oak away. We had a bad recession in '74 and then red oak took off. Consumer demands were different afterwards and open grained species were more profitable. Now, we are going back to the closed grain species.

Eventually, those demands will exhaust supply and price will increase to where the consumer seeks lower price replacement. Good for economics, but not necessarily good for managing forests.

With that thinking, you could justify high-grading a species since markets will take care of the next forest succession.

Paul_H · « **Reply #74 on:** January 18, 2003, 10:36:31 pm »

Dennis,
Did you ever live in Squamish?

Tom · « **Reply #75 on:** January 20, 2003, 12:50:23 pm »

Isn't it funny that it seems that the moderator of that enviro site is getting a belly full of the Whacko's?

Jeff · « **Reply #76 on:** January 20, 2003, 01:26:56 pm »

Pretty funny.

Don P · « **Reply #77 on:** January 29, 2003, 02:08:22 pm »

I read this today

...

"had to get some firewood and found a great tree so i backed my rig to it and fired up the saw. cleared some ropes away and pile of trash below it. started cuttin and i keep hearing some noises up above but i figure its just after effects of canadian beer or maybe some magpies. then come some forest service guys and even a sheriff and they keep pointin up at the tree. i tell em to back off and wave my saw at em. i sez i know its a G Dam tree and its mine so bug off. i start cuttin again and they keep yelling about a freakin moth or a butterfly or somthing so i wave my saw at em again and they back off. all the while these cashews and almonds are fallin from the tree and even a granola bar hits me on the head. i thought it was a big doug fir but maybe its a hybrid nut tree - no matter - the tree is startin to lean so i stand back and one of these would be tree thieves sez there is a luna butterfly or something up there on a platform. i give the guy a shove and tell him the dam butterfly knows how to fly and if he wants my tree he's gonna hafta come thru my saw to get it. im gettin really *pithed now. so after all this distraction i get the
tree fallin and they are runnin around as i'm limbing the tree and fighting them off at the same time. i finally got em to go to the top of the downed tree and tell them if they want they can have the dam branches. so then they back a freakin ambulance up to the top and start sawing a few branches and then take off with sirens wailing. they musta just wanted the top which is stupid and a waste too. if that was an elk it woulda been wanton waste and they would have to write themselves a fine. lucky i was there to use the rest of the tree. people like that disturb me. I got my wood and went home and had a BUD. "

News:

Author Topic: Tom and Jeff's walk on the green side. (Read 7193 times)