Butternut Seedlings

[SwampDonkey]

The forest is getting a little thick in the back yard. I think there are another 5 seedlings to the right. I'm going to see how they over winter and transplant them. I think they would be too tender to disturb right now, so I have to mow around them.  The tree with the grey bark to the upper right is the parent tree.  Transplanted it in 1987 I think.

[Mooseherder]

SD
What is the root system like on the Butternut?

[SwampDonkey]

Mainly shallow and wide spreading with a tap root that doesn't seem to go real deep. The roots have a strong smell to, if you injure them in digging. Must be the Juglanase in them. I dug mine up with a tractor bucket, but it was in real fine moist earth with barely a rock. Had alot of feeder roots, kind of reminded me of northern white cedar. I find the seedlings grow real slowly after the first year until a root system is well developed. Then they grow quite quickly for a few years and slow up again.

I wish I could get basswood to germinate, I have all kinds of flowers this year on the trees.

[limbrat]

A technique that i have had a lot of luck with in transplants. Is to dig down about 16" with a sharp shooter and cut the tap root during the growing season. Then transplant when the plant is dormant, the plant seems to put out more shallow roots and you get a better root ball. I have had a lot of luck with the local cedar, magnola,dogwood and wild azalia.

[jon12345]

Looks good, I just found 3 new ones that are 6-10' in height, which will probably succumb to the canker but I still like having them around.  There are hundreds of walnuts growin in the city where I work, I'm gonna get a few (dozen, hundred  )  to bury in the yard.  Usually walnut doesnt grow around me, but maybe if I plant them on a part of the 'lawn' that doesn't get mowed they'll do alright.

[SwampDonkey]

I found a couple short rows of new butternut trees on the edge of my woodlot (along the main road). I planted the seeds a couple years ago. Have another area that I've been combing through for new seedlings, ain't seen nothing yet. I'll probably plant some red oak seeds with my dibble this fall, they do better when burried.

[jon12345]

Our big butternut is loaded this year, going to do some serious plantin after they drop.  In other news, the city where I work is a cornucopia of walnut trees so I'm going to swipe a bunch of them to plant too 

[SwampDonkey]

You should have good luck with them both as long as the weeds aren't real tall or thick. They seem to take awhile to establish a good root network, then grow pretty fast for a few years. When they come up, you might want to put a wire cage around the trunk to keep the mice and rabbits out. I use that 1 cm square wire, some people use it on the floor of outdoor rabbit cages that is just big enough to pass their excrement. Use about 10 inch wide strips and wrap it loose so it's not touching bark. Cheaper than buying those plastic wraps for yard trees, although ya need wire cutters to cut the strips.

[jkj]

...walnuts...I'm gonna get a few (dozen, hundred  )  to bury in the yard.

After planting walnuts for years, one author I read came up with an interesting alternative - just dump a bushel or two in a pile on the ground and let the squirrels bury them!  They will lose most of them over the winter.  He said this seemed to work as well as digging holes and planting.

JKJ

[SwampDonkey]

That method would work, although there would be no control over where they got burried. If ya just use a dibble bar and poke a hole, mostly with the help of gravity, drop a seed in and kick the ground a couple times, it's not really that much work. If your using a shovel it'll seem more like work. No need to remove the husk, that will break down over fall and winter.

[jon12345]

Maybe I'll tear/till up some dirt, and put plastic down and then poke holes in it as I plant them 

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds like a good plan to me. 

[SPIKER]

Last fall my brother brought down a 50 gallon tub full of husk on wallnuts, I roto tilled a 100' section of side yard & we just spread them out & stepped them into the tilled ground, mowed this year blowing the grass into the area, there must be 500 wallnut trees growing in that section now,   next year I'll start by sorting out some while dormant & transplanting into the back pasture/hillside   and leave a few to continue growing.   maybe offering the 2/3 yr dromant seedling/saplings forsale locally    not sure HOW the best way to transplant these are as of yet.  SO any extra INFo on how would be nice.   I know the butternuts are nearly identical to the wallnuts as far as roots/transplanting goes so any better info on HOW to shear the tap root & when to do this to force upper root groth? 

thanks for any help

mark M

[jkj]

...any better info on HOW to shear the tap root & when to do this to force upper root groth? 

Mark,

I am a compulsive book-buyer (somebody help me) and there are several I especially liked: "Common Sense Forestry" by Morsbach, a delightful and fresh look at the subject, "The Woodlot Management Handbook" by Hilts and Mitchell, a more traditional approach, and "The Tree Doctor", more of a slick how-to aimed at the novice with lots of pictures with good instruction. 

And more specific to walnut, you would probably enjoy the interesting and entertaining article "Black Walnut Woes" by John Harwood, first published in Fine Woodworking (#44, Jan/middle of snowshow season 1984, available on eBay I notice), and reprinted in the most excellent Fine Woodworking publication "On Wood and How to Dry It".

JKJ

[SwampDonkey]

If you have nice soft moist loam ground, it's not hard to transplant them. If your transplanting seedlings dig a foot deep and 6 inches in radius around the seedling. It's best to plant the seed where it's going to develop for a few years. Transplanting young seedlings from ground to another location is probably best done in dormancy in spring. You can do it later in the season, but depends on the ground (being not compacted) and moisture. Also, rides a great deal on how well you escavate the tree and how quickly it gets set in it's new home. Taking the roots out of the ground is like open heart surgery.

[jackpine]

I have tried to transplant butternut seedlings several times and have had no luck. They live through the transplant but the squirrels dig them up
How do you guys squirrel proof them and how old must they be before the squirrels leave them alone?

[SwampDonkey]

Refer to post # 7 and modify it to allow some of the wire cage to protect the ground around the seedling. Try cutting a couple slits on the sides and bend the wire at 90 deg to lay flat on the ground. Keeps the buggers claws from reaching the soil.

[SwampDonkey]

There is an estate down the road, owned by some folks in Maine. I haven't got in touch with them yet, but they have a lot of nice sapling sized butternut on their lot. It's on a ridge and there is a lot of white ash and aspen, majority is aspen. But, I was doing some surveying of the area in question and every 40 m² plot had a hardwood or two or four in it. The area is about 25 acres in scope and it would be nice to do some pre-commercial thinning in there to favor the butternut and ash. It's nice to see so many butternut that are not suckered stumps. We used to snow mobile in that area 30 years ago and there were a lot of big old butternut and basswood across that ridge. Now most of those lots have been hacked off and mangled through just for $$. 

[Dana]

I would be interested in trying to grow a few butternuts if anyone has any extra nuts or seedlings.  I could trade for black walnut nuts this year or possibly Carpathian if any are left in the yard.

[SwampDonkey]

Apparently, butternut sap can be collected to make a sweet syrup. And the inner bark of roots contains substances used for a mild, safe laxative.

http://earthnotes.tripod.com/butternut.htm

[SwampDonkey]

More butternut seedlings discovered today from last fall's seed sowing.

[SwampDonkey]

Here are some shots of a 5 year old seedling. One of my best growing ones. This was planted insitu as a nut on the woodlot in 2002.

 

Just about 36 inches to the tip of the terminal bud.

 

Just some perspective on the size of the stem.

 

Some perspective on leaf size and crown size. 

[WDH]

SD,

You are the Butternut whisperer

[SwampDonkey]

Well, I was out in the back yard today looking over some things. And there, among all the young saplings on north side of my house I see....the typical large buds of a butternut tree. I thought, no, can't be. Walked closer for an inspection of the specimen and low and behold a 7 foot butternut sapling. I flagged it for spring transplanting. I'll be jiggered. Never thought to find one there in all the thickets.  It's about the most perfect symmetrical and formed butternut sapling I've seen.

[WDH]

So, I guess that I am right .

[Gary_C]

I thought I have heard that some type of disease was going to kill all the butternut?

Is this true and are you just doing this for naught?

[SwampDonkey]

Some people claim butternut canker, the disease, is here in NB, but I have not seen it in my area yet. I have seen some dying trees along a rail road track, but never really saw any canker like I'm used to seeing on other hardwood trees. Just looked like death from old age. Butternut is not a long lived tree to start with, 75 years is a real old one. I think the saving grace around here is that it is not growing everywhere, just a light sprinkling of it and never pure stands. I don't know if it has an alternate host either.

[SwampDonkey]

Here's a butternut I transplanted today from some of my seeding projects. It's a bit over 7 feet tall. I planted it on a site where I tore down an old shed last fall.

 





Nice typical butternut symmetry, and well balanced. I'll have my bucket waiting to collect butternuts in 25 years.

[Mooseherder]

That sure is pretty country Swamp Donkey.

[SwampDonkey]

Went out and measured the terminal shoot and it grew 26 inches in 2007. Those laterals in the last pic are from growth in 2007 as well. It's the first year it started branching out.

[SwampDonkey]

That sure is pretty country Swamp Donkey.

In the second picture, the land beyond the field in the middle of the picture is in Maine.

[SwampDonkey]

The awakening. 
 

The transplant is coming along nicely.


A new beginning.




Dug this seedling up this spring from under the old yard tree.

[WDH]

That first pic is beautiful.........

[thecfarm]

SD,how do you plant the nut?Do you scrap off the outside fuzz?Or just let the nut dry?I have some dried from last year in the garage,somewheres.I did have 4 on my land.Two have died and one got cut for the view.I mow around where they grow,none can grow up around them.The squirrels have not planted any in the woods.

[SwampDonkey]

cfarm,
I sink'em in the mud in fall, husk and all.

Ones that drop under the yard tree, and I don't pick them up, sprout up by July. They seem to be as easy to grow as acorns.

I cracked open some of the walnuts I wintered and they were sterile, no meat inside. Now last fall I checked a couple and they had meat. Trees might not be mature enough, don't know.

[thecfarm]

Thank you.I will have to try it.

[Lanier_Lurker]

Looks a lot like my hickory seedlings. 

[WDH]

Cousins, they are.

[Dodgy Loner]

Talk like Yoda, you do

In all the years I've been studying dendrology, I can't say that I've ever come across a butternut in the wild .  I would love to plant some around here, but I can't find any trees to collect seeds from!

[WDH]

Maybe SwampDonkey, send some to you he can.

[Lanier_Lurker]

Umm, yes - to WDH, you listen.

[Dodgy Loner]

How seedstock from Canada would perform in North Georgia I wonder.  Worth a try it is .

[Lanier_Lurker]

Interestingly enough, according to the Virginia Tech dendrology site they range naturally into Rabun County, GA.   

[Dodgy Loner]

Right, that's why I'm so surprised I've never seen any before, and I've spent lots of time walking around the north GA mountains and the Smokies.  I read somewhere that you should collect seedstock for forestry plantations from no further than 50 miles north or 200 miles south, or the leaves will not come out at a time that allows them to be competitive with the native vegetation.  Landscape trees have more leeway, since they don't face as much competition, but Canada to Georgia might be pushing it.

[Mooseherder]

How seedstock from Canada would perform in North Georgia I wonder.  Worth a try it is .

I brought a Spruce from Maine on the way back to Fl. to some friends in Sautee Georgia, probably just a couple hollers from you. 
Yep, It's still growing.
To boot, she found an arrowhead under the DanG tree when she replanted on their property.
I had dug deep to get alladaroot.
Our place in Maine is an hour north of SwampDonkey and it ain't in Canada.   

[SwampDonkey]

When I was traveling one time from Virginia and on down through, TN, northern Georgia and NC I  found butternuts grew mainly along small streams with riparian vegetation on farms and in well drained moist gullies often with small streams. Won't find them too often on dry soils of oak forest, but in the moist gullies. They do grow here in our sugar maple forest , but the moist rich sites that also contain yellow birch, basswood and white ash. Find some white ash-basswood ground and keep your eyes wide open. Similar to walnuts I found in the south. Butternut are a short lived tree and healthy aspen generally live longer. I suspect in ideal locations they live longer, like anything else.   I have a book that says it grows on dry rocky ground sometimes, but I have never once seen that situation around here or in travels. I always find it in moist firm soils with low course fragment content.

[Dodgy Loner]

I will keep my eyes peeled the next time I'm in a location that fits the bill.  I've probably passed some before and just thought it was walnut without paying much attention to it.

[slowzuki]

Our pair butternuts aren't doing so well, only about 1/2 the branches grew leaves this year and the squirels took every single blessed nut last year.  Our septic contractor damaged the root structure of both of them and the power pole contractor drove over the only seedling in the area.

I hope to get some started off this years crop because I'm not sure the tree will produce next year.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah doing major damage to tree lateral roots will cause great damage either to the crown or bole or both. That is why a lot of yard trees planted by ditches of roads get a lot of rot or tops die. The ditches often get cleaned out destroying the roots. Sometimes the damage was done years ago when a lot of rural trees grew along the roads bordering not so well manicured ditches and lawns. A whack along side the trunk with a huge snow plow doesn't improve life for a tree either.


Once you get your butternuts germinated, it will take a long time for them to get growing in height. It will seem they are doing nothing for 5 years, but they are growing their roots. I transplanted one seedling this spring and it was doing real good getting it's new leaves, then I went out a week later and it had turned black. I think they are very delicate until they have a good root system down. This was a new seedling and had a very small root. I planted it in good, soft, moist soil and I was surprised to see it die.

[SwampDonkey]

The squirrel never quite made it to the barn last fall with this one. 




One other got planted under my red maple on the lawn and 4 others germinated under the butternut tree.

[slowzuki]

Unfortunately ours have not produced any nuts this year.  I expect they will be dead by next year.  Very disappointed and wish I had kept my eye on the contractor better as he was told not to dig so close.

I can't spot any that have germinated, only ash seedlings growing below the butternuts now.

[SwampDonkey]

Are there any butternuts left down on the islands, or have the silver maples pretty much taken over? Those islands used to have tons of butternut trees as did the city. They don't live long, so they have probably almost all died out of the city streets.  And once they start they get messy dropping limbs, so they would be long gone in town. There was some on Saunders street where I lived once and the squirrels where forever busy. Might find some up along the Nashwaak in St Mary's. Up at Moody Clark's farm he had some in the pasture, but I think they dug so much loam out of the bank that the trees fell over into the river. I was just eyeing one of my older seedlings I started for mother and it has doubled in height this year and has it's first limbs. I tell dad he'll have butternuts before he'll have apples.

[slowzuki]

I haven't spent much time on the islands in the last 10 years.  Last I was there most of the trees I noticed were elm and some type of willow type thing that I don't see anywhere else but on the islands or the banks of the lower SJ river.  I wasn't really looking at trees then, only hay.

Ken

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, I think now you'll mostly find silver maples and ash out on the banks.

[rocksnstumps]

I noticed today the butternuts have started dropping in NE Wisconsin, at least on the one big old tree I have that is still hanging in there even with some canker evident. A few more on the property are still hanging in as well but may be shaded too much to produce anything. Probably 3/4 of the trees have already cashed in due to the canker so maybe I'm wasting my time, but who knows. Should be lots of opportunity this fall to get some sunny spots picked out since the ongoing salvage from Dutch Elm Disease and TSI cut has opened up quite a few areas. I guess I'll take the advice above and stomp 'em in husks and all. Is 1"- 2" a good depth?

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, sounds fine. They even germinate laying in the grass over winter and pop up by July. In other words, you don't have to work too hard at it.

[rocksnstumps]

Thanks SD,

Well, went out and put a couple dozen butternut seeds in the ground and the rest of the 5 gal bucket got thrown out amongst the slash from the recent logging in a few areas. Might have to try some acorns as well if I get a chance to collect some from a friend's land about 5 miles away. They should be dropping soon as well I'm guessing. No oak on this ridge at present but I'm told the soil has a good site index for such. May as well try to jump start something besides elm and ironwood which I still have plenty of saplings around in pockets.

Did look underneath several other large butternuts still hanging in there and no seeds this year again, just like no production the last several years I've checked. Wonder why that is? They're plenty big and the crowns get some sun. Do butternuts come in male/female varieties like boxelder or do only the lower branches produce anything so they need to get sun as well?

[SwampDonkey]

Separate male and female flowers on the same tree. The male pollen looks like white birch or alder catkins hanging in spring. The female flower is red with feather-like pistols and a small ovary. There are pictures in one of these butternut threads or the "Tree Sex" thread (use the forum search).

My lawn tree has been in low production the last couple of years, I can still find about a couple gallons each fall though. Usually the flowers emerge the same time. I don't notice a preference for crown position on my lawn tree, but in most trees pollen is on lower limbs and female nut flowers are in the upper crown.

[SwampDonkey]

Butternut Flowers

[slowzuki]

As an update, my butternuts are still alive, barely.  No nut crop again this year.  About 40% foliage left in the summer.

[SwampDonkey]

I have seen some dead ones below home but none dead around here yet and we have some pretty old ones around. I have not made it out on the old farm yet, waiting for hard frost to collect some nuts. I'll see how those trees are. The little brook back there that comes down between fields is lined with butternut trees. Maybe I'll go out there this weekend.

[bandmiller2]

Are you guys growing the butternuts for the nuts or the wood.Only my humble observation but the nuts don't seem to be worth the hassle to get the meat out.I grew up with brown mouth and fingers.When a kid late after dark I hauled a big wagonload of walnuts home by seven the next morning squirrels had stolen every nut.Frank C.

[SwampDonkey]

Both Bandmiller and aesthetics, and yes they are worth every morsel to me.  Nothing you want to go into commercial production over though.

[bandmiller2]

Swamper its been 50 years since I've opened one mayby I should try them again.Being kids we just smashed them with a rock to open and spit out the hull pieces.Whats the best tool to open them??A friend in Maine had a big tree over his camp I used to bring my sheridan pellet gun and lay on a blanket and pick off the red squirrels.Frank C.

[SwampDonkey]

Hammer and a brick. 

[SwampDonkey]

Went out this morning and picked about a gallon of butternuts along the creek. There were about 25 mature trees I searched under. Not a lot of nuts this year. Most came off one big old 20 inch dbh tree. I saw many big branches that the ice broke on some trees and in a couple of the crotches were some inhabitants, coons.   Only dead trees I found were runts in shade and one that bulldozing smothered the roots.




Going out to bury them after lunch.

[bandmiller2]

Swamper,if you were going to eat those butternuts [insted of hideing them for the squirrels] what would you do store them and let them age or what??I had high hopes their was a higher tech way to extract the meats than wacking with a hammer.A friend is going to give me a bucket full,says he needs a hard hat on his patio.Frank C.

[SwampDonkey]

Find a room the rodents can get to, namely squirrels and their ilk. We put down news paper on the floor and spread them out until about December. The thin husk will wither and dry up, so you just rub that off before hitting it a crack with the hammer. Easy to rub off. We used them in fudge, I suppose brownies would taste good to. 

A local bakery used to call their bread Butternut Bread before the Ontario Eastern Bakeries syndicate bought them out. "This is butternut country" the TV add would say with a covered wagon being hauled by horse through the country side.

[SwampDonkey]

Checked on some butternut seedlings today on the woodlot, put up some fresh winter grade ribbons to mark'm as I do. Most are chest high now (some 2 year olds are 14" or so) and the rabbits have not bothered them, which is surprising. Any of the red oak seedlings I spied where chewed last winter with new shoots off the stumps.  Probably marked a dozen, but didn't get around to all the locations.

[SwampDonkey]

Found 3 more seedlings on the edge of the lawn and one suckered back in the lawn that my brother snipped off last summer mowing. Never thought that one would live. I guess, never under estimate the will to live.

[Jeff]

Donk, there were a couple of butternut trees that grew on the old farm where by Dad was born and raised. By the time I was old enough to remember seeing them when pointed out to me, they were in pretty bad shape and have since died quite a few years ago. I am sure from blight.  They were my Dad's favorite tree and I could see the sorrow in him when we would look at those dieing trees. I bring this up because I dreamed about it last night and I dreamed you smuggled me some seedlings that we planted at the Pigroast next year.

So I'm asking, can you smuggle me some seedlings?

[SwampDonkey]

What are friends for again? 

A couple two years old, the second one down is the one that my brother cut off mowing. The last is of a couple nuts that recently fell off, they are not mature yet this early. These trees and another one or two I found are in a nice line with the older yard trees in the back yard.

[Jeff]

I think they would do okay here, but the only gauge I have is that there is a couple walnut trees growing right up the street, even though we are probably 60-70 miles north of the typical walnut range in Michigan. The only deer we have right here in the last 27 years was Dizzy. We never used to have any Rabbit's but in the last 5 years they have become quite prolific. I would guess a rabbit would be the greatest threat to a young tree. That and our sandy gravel soil. Any tree I have planted here stands in apparent stagnant growth for the first 4 or 5 years, but them they take off and grow like crazy. My conclusion to that is they are spending most of their  available nutrients putting down roots.  A 10 inch red maple here will have a root ball 6 foot across. The Oaks however seems to go deep and not as massive a root system as the Maples.

[SwampDonkey]

Well, all you can do is try, I would mix some good potting soil in the natural soil of your ground to help out the roots of the seedlings. They are not shade tolerant so after awhile they need good light to thrive. They like soils with calcareous bedrock if it is dryer. The soils here where it grows wild is moist dark loam often shallow because of the water table so you don't get a well developed tap root just long laterals. The trees here would take anywhere in Michigan since we are further north. Ours are an isolated population away from the continuous range.

[Jeff]

The trees that were at the old farm grew on the little salt river river flats. Lots of moisture and probably lots of nutrients, but prone to frequent flooding. The flats also had ironwood, bitternut hickory, ash and sycamore. If you came up off the river flats it was a completely different forest type, predominantly oak maple, some ash and whitepine, but there was one shag bark hickory. I don't know of any hickory trees around here, and we are only about 25 miles North, however our elevation is much greater here.

[SwampDonkey]

There are a number of species here that don't grow naturally in the other two Maritime provinces. The Saint John River is a little paradise so to speak of odd ball species. Other species unique from the rest of the Maritimes is bur oak, silver maple, and basswood. But butternut will grow here on ridges and in gulleys, fence rows of fields, and line the shores of little small streams. The best butternut log I cut was on the ridge out back in with sugar maple, basswood, ash, yellow birch, beech and ironwood in dark loam soil with a little creek starting from springs near by. It had a twin nearby and a lot of saplings and seedlings of butternut in the area. That whole ridge has a mix of butternut across it for as far as there is woods. And the little stream down hill of there that meanders through fields is lined with butternut.

[SwampDonkey]

My uncle said today that a butternut tree I transplanted from the farm here to his place back in 1997 has produced nut(s) this year. He found one had dropped from the tree recently. I told him to save any he finds. 

I estimate the tree to be 20-23 years old.

So Jeff, if I make it with those seedlings next year, you have a stab at harvesting nuts in your senior years.

Sunday I may go collecting nuts in the butternut grove.

[thecfarm]

I have not checked mine. I only have 3 on my land. A big one and 2 real small ones.

[SwampDonkey]

Not very many nuts this year at all. My brother picked up 7 nuts out in the grove and my mother has another 12 nuts from the Woodstock area.

From the butternut grove on the farm.

[SwampDonkey]

Picked these today under the yard tree. They are a little larger than the ones pictured in the last couple posts.



The butternut trees are pretty much naked of leaves now, accept the more protected seedlings.

[WDH]

Nice butternuts.  I see that you have some apples, pears, peaches, and plums too  .

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, I was hoping they would serve as scale for the nuts that were mature versus the early duds.   Nice aspen veneered strawberry box to.

[sandhills]

Swamp Donkey, I have no idea how butternut would do down here (central Nebraska, I have clay, and sandy soils) but I would be interested in giving them a try if you'd be willing to sell a few.  I planted a short row of black walnut along a fenceline this fall, and a few peach pits, I also tried planting some apple and peach tree seedlings there a few years back but the ones that made it through the first years the best, the deer got a hold of last fall .  Anyway, if you think they stand a chance down here I'd like to try it, I'd pay some and equal it with a donation to the FF, it's just a small corner of a field and I don't have much room to work with, just looking for a little diversity.

[SwampDonkey]

I wouldn't be able to move plant material through the border sandhills. Could try and send some nuts sometime. I'm all out of them for this year though. Wasn't a very good nut year here, but I planted some and gave a small bunch away to a couple forum members.

[SwampDonkey]

Just adding another butternut in here.

[beenthere]

Which is which?   

[SwampDonkey]

Just toss a coin.

[sandhills]

That's fine, I didn't make myself very clear, the nuts were what I was referring to, I figured seedlings wouldn't work across the border.  Next fall keep me in mind if you have a few extra, I'd be more than happy to buy them, don't know how this little experiment is going to turn out just yet, playing around more than anything else and trying to keep adding to it. Thanks

[SwampDonkey]

That pretty much sums it up for my end to, just experimenting and playing. The moose have not bothered them yet, but I'm sure they'll rip up a few in time.