logging rates

[Kansas]

What would be a fair, or going price, for contract labor for logging? We would supply the skidder, timber and all skidder costs, they would supply the labor and their own chainsaws. This would be mixed hardwood timber, no walnut, good logging conditions, with trees averaging 600 lb ft. I am looking for a straight through price for the good logs as well as the pallet grade logs.

[Gary_C]

Never heard of logging being done that way so have no clue. Best answer is it depends on exactly what the job is like. That and what you can agree to would be fair.

If this is just an idea to avoid payroll taxes, beware, it may not work.

[beenthere]

.. We would supply the skidder......

That sounds like a problem waiting to happen.. sure could become expensive.  Can an experienced skidder operator be found in your area? 

Can you explain for us (at least me ) where 600 lb ft comes from and how it is used?  Who grades the logs, or is that at the discretion of the buyer?  How far to skid?  How do you control damage to residual stand, and to trails and roads? Would you be on-site overseeing the operation? All would seem to have an effect on the "price" paid for labor and chainsawing.

[Ron Wenrich]

Most guys in our area sub-contract out their logging.  I'm a sub-contractor in a mill situation.  It doesn't avoid costs, it just shifts it.  You have to make sure that they carry their own disability insurance as well as others.  To be considered sub-contractors, they will set their own hours and you will have limited amounts of supervision.  Also, figure out who's carrying liability insurance and who is doing the bucking.

I have seen rates done at $X/truckload or $X/ton or $X/Mbf.  I'll have to check at the mill to see what the rate is they are paying their contract cutters.  $50/Mbf wouldn't be out of line for what you are proposing, or may be a little low, depending on your area and the size of timber.

A good crew of workers can put out several trailerload of material a day.  Pay them fairly or well and you will benefit.  Pay them just enough to get by and they will move on and trash your equipment.

[Kansas]

That was a typo on my part. I meant to say, 600 bd ft. I am looking at a per board foot rate on logging. Around here, most of the few mills that exist contract part of their logging needs. Some buy the timber, and hire a logger with his own equipment, in some cases, the mill provides the skidder. We have a skidder, and have made such arrangements in the past. The advantage to the mill is knowing log costs up front, and not having to oversee supervision on a day to day basis. The advantage to the logger is that he can work his own hours, and can earn as much or as little as he wants, depending on how hard he wants to work, etc.
The logger we have used in the past is going on to other ventures, and I was simply wanting to make sure I was in the ballpark on compensation. In the past, we have paid $60/Mbf on all logs, regardless of grade. Mills and loggers are few and far between out here, and it can be difficult to get an idea on what the going market rate is.

[David_c]

60 seems fair using your equipment fuel, and maintanance.

[beenthere]

Mills and loggers are few and far between out here, and it can be difficult to get an idea on what the going market rate is.

Where is "out here"    Probably a dumb question or a "duh!!" by the handle "Kansas" but we have one member who is from Kansas, IL so  ??     Are Ron's insurance points covered?  Do you know the reason the one logger you had moved on, or at least an inkling?

[Kansas]

Im out here in northeast kansas, about 90 miles west of kansas city. We have some good quality timber out here, walnut, bur oak, cottonwood, ash, soft maple, and hackberry being some of what we have. A little farther east, but still in kansas, we have good red oak, basswood,hickory,and hard maple. Its not nearly as plentiful as other states, but there is still quite a bit. What we dont have is much of an infrastructure left. For various reasons, most mills shut down back in the 70s and 80s. There are few loggers, and even fewer mills to sell to.
The logger that has worked for us in the past still wants to log, but loves cattle and farming, and has had an opportunity to partner up on a cattle feeding operation. He may still log during the winter on high quality walnut logging jobs, time will tell. 

[UNCLEBUCK]

If I was to hire one or two men to go through my woods and chainsaw down all the big old oak and ash trees and buck them to 8'-6" lengths so I can follow well behind them and haul the logs to a open area not too far away and just keep making stacks of logs say 30 or 40 logs to a pile , would I pay them according to the doyle scaled pile of logs at the end of the job?

Would this 50$ or 60$/Mbf be just for dropping and bucking sawable log?

Would that include bucking up the tops into firewood length where the tops have fallen ? I suppose bucking up tops to firewood size would be impossible to calculate Mbf and would have to switch to a cord estimate?

Dropping and bucking 8'-6" saw logs is my priority so I should keep this a simple question and not worry about the firewood part of it.

Do I pay off of the scaled piles of logs when job is done? How's that 

[Ron Wenrich]

We have one mill that is paying about $70/Mbf for cut & skid to a landing.  They use their own skidders.  Payment is on the Doyle scale and the mill scales the logs.  The mill will move a big knuckleboom to the site, then buck & load.   Another mill hauls tree length to the mill.  Theses mills only cut logs and no pulpwood.  One mill makes demands of 50 Mbf/week or gone. 

Personally, I wouldn't want the loggers cutting any logs.  One reason is that it helps keep them honest.  How hard would it be to have another truck come in and take a few logs (veneer) off of the job?  Besides, the guy who bucks the logs determines the grade of not only the logs, but all the lumber inside.  A hard concept for many loggers.

I wasn't able to find out too much about what they are paying any of our subcontractors.  The one that cuts and using our skidder works way too cheap and drinks too much.  They pay him $150/day for cutting and provide transportation to and from the woods.  He pays for the saws, although they bought him the last one.  Way too cheap.

The other logger is getting $70/Mbf, I think.  They figure out how much an average load is worth, and just count loads.  These guys also cut polewood.  Some polewood goes to firewood, some to pulp, and some to scragg.   It seems to work out pretty well with this logger.  Other loggers don't like fooling around with the polewood.

Your $60/Mbf sounds pretty good.  At that price, you might be able to lure in some of those displaced west coast loggers or even some east coast hardwood guys to do the work.  Kansas is sure a lot cheaper to live then in the northeast. 

[OLD_ JD]

like we already talk about that bfore,if u go cheap they will waste all the small wood,if u pay to good ure profit will be low........hour's rate + some Mbf or corde or tone "bonus " is what i prefer...

[Tillaway]

It always amazes me how little logging costs back east.

You need close to $300mbf out here on the cable ground.  Thats includes felling, yarding, processing, and loading.  Trucking runs the better part of $100mbf. 

Shovel logging runs around $100mbf more or less.

Jammer and Yoader costs are somewhere in between.

[SwampDonkey]

Around here I think it's $100-120 per mbfm ($50-60/cord) for manual work, no matter the grade. You're not going to get anyone out of the pickup for $50/mbfm.

[Woodhog]

If you leave out the loading costs in Tillaways example (the trucker loads the wood  here, on his nickel), with the wood being #1 premium grade ("9 inch top Minimum )grade spruce logs we would make a landing GROSS profit of 0 dollars...

$310.00 Mbfm for the logs and $310.00  CDN for getting them to the roadside...

[SwampDonkey]

Including the machinery over head right?

[Ron Wenrich]

Tillway

The reason it is "cheap" is because there isn't nearly the amount of capital investment on the logging site.  How much is a high lead these days or a D-10?  You don't see that type of equipment in our woodlots.

Swamp

When was the last time you had a sale with an average dbh of 18"+?  Those small logs eat up production costs. 

[Gary_C]

How do those western logging rates work with the $400 per thousand for dimension lumber? Yes. I know their yield on dimension sawing is very good and they do get higher value 2 x 10's, etc. But still $500 delivered to the mill does not leave much! 

[SwampDonkey]

Ron, good point on the tree size. We do well to average 10 inches, but we aren't strickly cutting sawlogs. Our woodlots are 70 % or more pulp. You'd go broke quick chasing sawlogs in my area. Most our veneer markets are state side where they have more choice wood to keep the yard full. Even the folks at Columbia in Presque'Isle Maine send buyers far and wide for logs.

[UNCLEBUCK]

Thanks Ron W for a answer I can understand 

[Tillaway]

The highest cost operation I have right now is a helicopter that gets the logs from stump to mill for probably around $450 or so.  The cheapest cable side I have now is putting them on the truck for about $225... and he is not making any money.  Most of the time the logging cost from stump to mill is around $320 to $350 or so for a cable side.

A cable side will have a yarder (around $500k), shovel ($275k) and either a stroker or dangle head processor ($300k...ish), a 650 JD dozer or equivalent ( $150K new maybe?), carriage or sky-car (cost from a few hundred bucks to $80K for a big Boman sky-car),  plus extensions, straps, blocks, tools, saws, a crummy, fire equipment and other misc stuff plus a crew of 6 to 8 to be fully staffed.  The side has to gross between $3000 and $4000 a day.

Delivered log prices were between $610 and $640 for Doug fir the first 1/4 2006.  Western Hemlock was about $420.  There is quite a bit of overrun, almost double is some cases, since 40' is a preferred length but I still can't tell how come it sells for so little at retail.  The profit margins must be pretty slim on the milling end.

[Ron Wenrich]

When you say gross $3000-$4000, do you mean in logs or for the logging rate.  If you're logging rate is $325/Mbf, then you only need to get around 12.5 Mbf for the day.  That's less than 3 truckloads/day. 

Here's what an east coast crew would need.  1 skidder - cost anywhere from $20k used to $150k new with a grapple.  You may also need a knuckleboom loader.  If put on a used truck, you may get another $50k.  Chainsaws and crummy are crew responsiblility, and don't add that much more.  You have to remember that our logging operations are only 1-2 generations removed from horse logging.  Methods haven't changed much, just the equipment.

Our 2 man crew gets out about 3 loads a day.  If they get paid $70/Mbf, they make about $1000/day, which is pretty close to your number/manday. 

Your overrun comes from calling a piece of 6/4 a piece of 2".  Automatically you get a 25% overrun, and you haven't even started a saw.   

[Tillaway]

The $3000 to $4000 is the logging rate.  Our loads, local area, run about 3.2mbf to 3.5mbf average.  The drop axle trucks can load almost 4mbf.  Our piece size is small in our area with lots of 50 log count loads.  70 log counts are common.  The mills prefer 40' lengths since the scale will benefit them.  Maximum scaling length according to bur ea rules is 40' on the west side of the Cascade Mountains, a 42' log would be "pencil bucked" at a 20' in the first segment and then the rest for a 22' top log.

The $325 figure includes trucking.  The $3000 to $4000 logging costs is whats need to put the logs on the truck so you would need to add another$600 or so per day per truck.  They usually can keep two or three trucks busy, depending of course on hauling distance.  So you would need to add another $1200 to $1800 a day for trucking.

Some guys will buy a cable side for allot less than what I said for equipment price, usually they have allot crew turnover since they will be fighting down time due to breakdowns.  We also have a serious labor shortage locally so good rigging rats will be working for your competition within hours of a breakdown.  It is not uncommon to lose a crew practically overnight to a breakdown.

One of the operators I have just destroyed the shaft on his mainline drum two days ago, last time it cost him about $10,000 and two weeks of down time while the manufacturer of the yarder built a new one. 

[Rick Alger]

Just came across this topic and found the regional differences interesting. One timber company I know of here in northern NH lets out cut-and-skid contracts for $20.00 per ton for spruce/fir logs and $15.00 to $18.00 per ton for pulp. That's about $90 per mbf and $35.00 per cord. Average stand diameter is around nine inches.