How old is this Incense Cedar?

[Jedon]

I found this on my land, I certainly don't want to cut it down.  How fast does cedar grow?

[Jeff]

Wow, thats quite a tree. There is really no way to age it short of increment boring.


Jedon, I optimized this photo for you and put it on the forestry forum server. In the future, photos must be on our server. Every member has the ability to create thier own galleries where they can place photos. Here is a link to our help directory and it contains a link to a tutorial on optimizing and placing photos on the Forestry Forum.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=help

[Jedon]

The land was timberland, I guess the logging company was not allowed to cut some of the really big cedars and they didn't seem interested in the Madrones that are about that same size as that cedar.  I'm not curious enough about the age to bore into it, just idel curiosity about such a magnificent tree.

Sorry about the image, I'm used to uploading my images to my own servers since most forums don't have good picture storage. I'll put them here next time.

[solodan]

Jedon,

I will guess that you live on the west slope of the Sierra and north of 88, since you have both incense cedar and Madrone.  They logged most of the really big incense cedars down my way, but still lots of good sized ones.
How big is that one? I am guessing about 60" dbh.  That would make alot of pencils.

[Jedon]

Wow that's pretty close! It's east of North San Juan, by the north entrance to Malakoff Diggins State Park.
I haven't measured yet, I'll have to bring some string next time.
Yeah lots and lots of pencils for sure, seems like there should be a better use for them!

[solodan]

Incense Cedar is my favorite wood to mill. The fine saw dust bothers me a bit, but it makes the best looking trim and siding in my book.

[rpg52]

I live a bit south of you in the Sierra, the foresters about say that Incense Cedar grows at about 60% of the rate of Ponderosa, so they used to try to eliminate it from industrial lands.  Interestingly enough, it used to have the lowest value of any of the conifers (that's my guess as to why it didn't get cut on your land.)  Since the price of redwood has gone up so much recently, it is now the most valuable timber tree in the Sierra because of its' rot resistance.
 
Like Jeff said, if you really want to know the age, an increment borer is the only way.  I bored an 18" cedar a few years back, the first foot in diameter took about 65 years, then there was a harvest, and the last 6" took about 12 years.  Yours could be 300 years or only 150 if it was growing by itself.  You have probably got some high site timber land there by Malakoff.  (Assuming the hydraulic miners didn't wash away your soil!)   
Ray
PS, by the way, did you know there was a report of "wild" cranberries growing out in a bog in the middle of the hydraulic pit at Malakoff?

[Jedon]

"wild cranberry" eh? Probably a mutant from all the cyanide and mercury! 
We do have lost of gooseberry and some native blackberry along with a couple hazelnuts.
There are even a few Pacific Yew trees which I'd love to make a bow out of.
Maybe someday I'll get around to boring that tree, first I want to use a GPS and my laser distance measurer to record the location and size of all the larger trees.

[rpg52]

Jedon -
FYI only, there is a book for Ca. plant taxonomy nerds called "The Jepson Manual".  Huge, tome of a book, anyway, under "Vaccinium" (the genus of blueberries etc.), under the plant family Ericaceae, is Vaccinium macrocarpon, the cranberry of commerce, native to New England.  "Boggy soil at abandoned placer mine", "near North Columbia, n. Nevada Co."  Sounds like your spot.  I don't know anybody that has actually seen them - to me the amazing thing is that they can survive there.  If you have wild turkeys, you could make Thanksgiving dinner.   
Ray

[Jedon]

It's only about a mile or two away from me, I should find the picture and try to hunt down the plant, kind o flike geo cacheing hehe.
I'll have to pick up that book, I'm trying to learn about the plants and trees on my land.

[rpg52]

Jedon,
Yeah, you might want to start with something like "A Sierra Nevada Flora" by a guy named Weeden.  The Jepson Manual has everything in Calif., including deserts, coasts, etc.  Encyclopedic, and probably cost about $100 or more now.  The Weeden book is more like $20 or so.  Check in one of the bookstores in Nevada City, I'd bet they have some good guides, maybe some with photos too, which are always a help.

I would ask one of the ?rangers?, who ever works at the park, they likely may know how to find the cranberry.  I've been meaning to try sometime but haven't made it back there in a number of years.  On my list of things to do.  Good luck.
Ray

[solodan]

I'm guessing this one I have is pretty old too.

[boboak]

  Jedon...We're logging just up the road from you near Snowtent Spring.  We're getting occasional big cedar and if you'll post the diameter of your tree I'll try to match up a similar butt cut or stump and count the rings.  This might give you a ball-park figure.  If you want to explore it for yourself go on up the Graniteville Road and take the turn for Relief Hill,go in about a mile and follow the haul road.  Best to do it on a week-end and avoid the log-truck traffic.  Check in at the logger's camp alongside the haul road and they can tell you where to go.

[Left Coast Chris]

rpg..... is the Incense Cedar the same as the Western Red Cedar that I believe Baileys sells?     If not, is there a value difference?    I was thinking of planting some Western Red Cedar thinking they have the rot resistance and could grow here in Redding at 600 ft elevation and take the heat pretty well. 

[Jedon]

I was recently told by a local that the tree is actually a "mountain cedar", a variant of Incense Cedar.  I couldn't find any reference to it on the net though.

[SwampDonkey]

farmer, be careful of the variety of western red you get. The coastal variety doesn't do well above 450 m elevation (well 600 ft is well below that), but it won't do well in dry climate. There is an interior western red that may be more suited. I know I've seen it in the plateau country of Prince George, BC.

Here is a coastal red cedar from the Charlottes.

[Left Coast Chris]

Thanks Swanpdonkey.......... I did'nt know that there were variations of the Western Red Cedar.    I have dug up inland cedars that grow in hot dry areas and they grew fine down here.   I planted them at the last house we lived at about 10 miles north of where we are now.  The soil was 5' of white hardpan compressed fine volcanic ash and the grew great.   We have 12' of river bottom loam adjacent to the Sacramento River so I assume they would do fine down here also.    I will call Bailey's and ask some questions as to variety before I buy.   -thanks-

[SwampDonkey]

USDA site with range map

They've suggested it grows on sites up to 1190 m on the BC coast, but that greatly depends on microclimate. I've been all over BC's north coast and never saw it at that elevation on any island or hillsides I was on. Not saying that you wouldn't find it on Vancouver Island that high up. Above 450 m and you got yellow cedar and mountain hemlock and scrubby lodgepole pine on open swamps (so hard the axe will bounce back at ya) and sitka spruce.

[SwampDonkey]

From what the BC classification for the Vancouver-Charlotte Forest Region indicates it can be found in higher elevation on what they call the Southern Moist Submaritime Coastal Western Hemlock Variant (CWHms1). I know that has little meaning unless you understand the classification. But, anyway it's in the area of the Fraser River east and north of Chilliwack and in the eastern portion of the Coast Mountains from upper Harrison Lake to the Homathko River. The elevational limits of cedar range from 650 to 1350 meters in that biogeoclimatic unit.

CW = western red cedar
Hm = mountain hemlock
s = submaritime subzones are restricted to the leeward side of the Coast Mountains (yellow cedar is scarce)

[rpg52]

Farmer 77
Haven't been back to this thread in a while - the Incense Cedar is in the Bailey's catalog I think (Calocedrus decurrens).  It should do fine in Redding.  I've been told that (unlike many other conifers) the Incense Cedar doesn't vary much genetically over its' range.  Any you find should do fairly well.  My family even planted one in the central valley (Willows) many years ago and it seemed to do ok.  I wouldn't plant any of the other conifers though, unless you can find a seed source close to you.  Good luck.
Ray

[Left Coast Chris]

Thanks 52...... I have not made up my mind regarding what I will plant in the back 6 acres where I pulled out the walnut orchard.   I would really be better off replanting walnuts but since I cannot use methal bromide to get rid of the nematodes from the old walnuts I have to wait 4 or 5 years to replant if I go with more walnuts.

I am now experimenting with some Giant Sequioas.....bought some 6" seedlings off ebay.   Suposedly if you give them alot of water they do well in the heat.   A pine cone came with the trees so I planted the seeds and got 5 new sprouts now!

I was also in Kentucky this summer and brought back some Red Oak, Red Maple, Burr Oak, Eastern Black Walnut, Ginko Biloba, Pinn Oak and Eastern Buckeye and planted them all at the same time.   Only the Sequioas are coming up.  Not sure if the Oaks and Maples needed some chilling first.   Not sure if they will germinate.

[rpg52]

If you are thinking of a crop for that ground, I'd look into Ginko.  There may be a market for the nuts, the herbal people say it improves your memory and are selling extracts and the whole nuts.  Only problem is the covering of the nut smells like rancid butter, so it isn't too popular to have around.  If you can stand that though, you might even have a better paying crop than walnuts.
Ray

[LeeB]

I'm no gardener but my wife tells me ceddar mulch will get rid of nematodes. Ii guess 6 acres of mulch would be a little much though. LeeB

[Left Coast Chris]

I will look into the Ginko market.  Don't know a thing about the trees.  We can grow about anything here that is edible so it may be a possibility.  The smell....... I took off the flesh from the seed and it honestly smelled like vomit.  It stunk up my whole hotel room until I flushed it.  It was pretty bad.   

As for the cedar mulch.......I assume it is ground up ceder bark?  That would definately be alot for the 6 acres.    I am currently in year 3 of the 5 year nemetode dye off period so the fall back position is to put it in pasture.  That would let me plant some of the hard wood trees I have collected so I am leaning in that direction.

-thanks-

[LeeB]

Any or all of it. Not just the bark. LeeB

[SwampDonkey]

Tuberseal and maybe others use Douglas fir bark, ground up fine, for there potato seed treating chemical. I suppose it gets bound to the dust as a way of delivering it to the cut wet surface of a potato. Protects against disease and bugs. I forget the % of bark, but it's pretty high. Just happened to notice it as one of the ingredients on the bag.

[edit]Did a little internet reading and apparently the bark is an active ingredient in Fusarium fungus treatment.