4 Post vs. Cantilever

[Burlkraft]

I'm really going to come to a decision on mill one of these days real soon now.

I have read all the literature and watched all the dvd's and video's and heard most of the sales pitches, now I would like to hear from users. Is 4 post better than cantilever Timberking...anybody have one I have heard a lot about Woodmizer, but not much about others. Is there really any choice but WM

Band or swing I'd like to have both...especially a slabber......which should a guy get first

Am I really crazy....Like Jill thinks

I just want some honest input

[jpgreen]

Take some of the sales pitches with a grain, no a rock of salt.

I found some MFG claims to be absolute bunk when I researched mills.

If I was to narrow down a guys search it would be as follows...

Lucas

Peterson

Woodmizer

-not necessarily in that order.. 

[twoodward15]

Woodmizer would have been out of business a long time ago if their sawmills didn't work!!  I'm not saying I would or wouldn't buy one (I'm looking at all of them now as well, but the small homeowner models), but if it didn't work they wouldn't be selling them.

[FiremanEd]

We own a 4 post Timber Harvester and two Woodmizers,, a LT300 & a LT70,,, any future mills will be Woodmizer in one color or the other, probably green...

[raycon]

Are you buying new or used?
I don't think the cantilevered vs 4-post is the main issue.
Myself I'd look at the whole package  -- log handling capabilities (hydraulic), debarker,toe rollers, log turner that does not mark cant faces and as much hp as I could afford. Probably forgot a few things but those are the main being able to setup and break down in 10 minutes is a good feature as well.
I'd take a serious look at a mill that had the ability to turn the cant so that the band is entering a clean face as well. I think the cantilevered desgin functions fine but I'll be lucky to mill 50k bdft this year.

[Bibbyman]

This has been covered a number of times.  I guess it’s time to cover it again.

Both designs are capable of making excellent lumber.  And, I’ve seen good lumber and bad lumber come off of both types of mill designs.  A lot depends on the overall quality of the mill, blade, and attention to detail that the sawyer puts in.

Don’t fall for the wobbly Wood-Mizer head can’t saw straight story.   The walls in reception area at the Wood-Mizer home office in Indy are covered with names of people that have sawn over a million board feet on Wood-Mizer mills.  Probably for every one there there are others that didn’t even bother to apply for their million board foot club and others that are on some multiple of millions of board feet.

The Wood-Mizer design has a lot of other advantages that the owners have come to enjoy. 

The deck height is about 6” lower than a most 4-post mills of the same capacity.  I find it easier to work at that height. 

The weight is generally less – thus making it easier to pull on the road and to position – even if you position it by hand.   

The ridged frame makes it easy and quick to set up. 

The single rail opens up two corners at both ends of the mill so you can step in to pull a board or slab easier.

A lot of times you can saw rough and odd shaped logs on a Wood-Mizer that would require a lot more trimming with a 4-post because the cantilever head is open on the loading side.

Wood-Mizer sets the high water mark in both product qualities as support.

The best way to figure out what mill is best for you is to visit with some owners and to try them out – or at least watch them saw.  Attending an open house or forestry show and seeing them run side by side is another way.  While you’re there, talk to some of the owners.

Good luck!

[solodan]

If I was to narrow down a guys search it would be as follows...

Lucas

Peterson

Woodmizer

-not necessarily in that order.. 

I only partially agree with you Pat

I would say definately in that order.

[fstedy]

  I have to step up to the plate for TimberKing the B-20 has been a great machine it cuts great, has good production  and the price was right. It all depends on what your looking for. Whatever mill you purchase you learn to work with its own little quirks. WM has some great features the TK does not such as the automated blade guide and the log turner but you will pay for these features. I bought my B=20 with 30 hours used and the cost was about $8000. less than comparable a WM. I have not had any major problems with my mill only a limit switch that got moisture into it. Good luck with your selection and try to stay with our sponsors they are great companies.

[stumpy]

I owned a Norwood Lumbermate for about a year.  I was a well built saw and it cut just fine.  When I decided to make this a business, I upgraded to a used WM LT30.  I looked at others and decided that the WM was the sturdiest and, for me, it had many features that fit my needs. It's not hydraulic, but the power feed, power up and down, power blade guides, debarker and log loader/turner, make this saw much easier on the body. 

I too was somewhat sceptical about the cantilever, but sinse using it, I like it much better and considering they've sold thousands of them, they must be alright.  Also I do mobile sawing, and the setup is about 5 minutes and the bed design makes off-loading alot easier.

Now I don't bleed Orange, and I'm not saying WM is the best saw for everyone, and I'm sure there are other good saws out there, But, for what it's worth,  this was the best move for me.

[Engineer]

Here's a short take:

I spent almost eight hours last weekend in Essex, VT at the NE Forestry Expo.   Most of that time was spent just watching sawmill dealers run their mills and market their products.   I was quite impressed with PARTS of all of the different manufacturer's mills, and thought that Woodmizer (who is the market leader) could take some lessons in engineering and innovation from the competition. 

SOME lessons.  Generally it's the other way around.  I keep coming back to WM, even after seeing the offerings from other manufacturers.     Granted, you can and generally will spend less money buying a non-WM mill.   You can easily eat up that savings by adding on all the extra stuff like debarkers and setworks and hydraulics and what-have-you that WM packages standard on certain mills.  What you still have with a 4-post mill, even if you've saved some money, is a design that has some inherent limitations that cannot be overcome by throwing options at it.    I don't think the 4-post mills are built as strongly or rigidly as the WM mills.   They make up for it by using the 4-post design that can compensate for it (as long as you're dead level).   

Since you didn't ask about the swingblades or portable circular mills, I can say that I was impressed, they are fast, well-built, generally inexpensive for their capabilities, but have their own set of limitations which I found to be slightly more than I was willing to compensate for.    I'm probably the first guy here to say that I prefer a bandmill over a swingblade.   For my particular sawing needs, and the materials I have to work with, the swingblade isn't appropriate.

If someone could come up with a cost-effective cantilevered mill design that could directly compete with WM and have some of the small tweaks and changes that competitors use, I think they could have a great product.  I also think that it's not likely to ever happen, due to the tooling and assembly start-up costs associated with such an enterprise.

[woodbowl]

When it comes right down to the bare bones, the issue is not whether the head is cantilevered or post supported, but rather does the mill cut accurate wood.

The preconcieved notion of a head that hangs out over the the log, does not cut as accurate as a 4 post support is not based on fact.

I've seen people reach and grab my WM power head in the static position  and say, look at how it shakes.

I could care less how it shakes. The thing I'm concerned about is, does it cut accurate wood? It is stable while in the cut and does not shake unless the loader gets happy and runs into my mill with a log! I've looked for a wiggle in the wood after such an incident, but didn't find any distortions. Having sawed almost 2,000,000 BF for the GP on their location with a light frame, 1988 manual Woodmizer with homemade hydraulics, in various terrane, I kinda' like the shake if you want to know the truth, because it tells me where the critical margines are ain't! I've pulled that WM LT40 with a little Isuzu truck for 10 years and sawed 40" dia X 20' logs at times. (had to chainsaw a blade guide notch)

I know it sounds like I bleed orange too, but I can't ignore the facts. I've looked around a bit myself and have considered a 4 post at times, but I always come back to the bare bones.

If you had a light tool that did just as good of a job or better, just as fast and just as accurate that fit in your pocket VS another tool that fit in a suit case ...........  

[SAW MILLER]

After sawing for four years on my home built four post mill,I bought a new LT 40 WM..
     After eight months of sawing...mostly 5 days a week..I am tickled to death with the WM.
       But,I miss a few features that I had on my old mill.For one,I done all my work from the operator's side on my old mill.Log loading...dogging..off bearing..all were done without ever walking around my mill cause the sawduat was blown out the other side where it belongs..I never had to walk in my sawdust.
    Another  thing I miss is my old dogs...I never had to climb the mill to reach over a big log to dog it because my dogs were on the operator's side where they oughta be..And I had four of them so I could dog a log no matter where it landed..I also never had to lift that 25 pound booger cause all I had to do was slide it in and crank it tight.My shoulder KILLS me every night from liftin that heavy sucker with an extended arm over top of a big log.
      Now,there ain't a thing wrong with the monorail cantilever design..In fact that's probably the best feature of my WM mill...It'll saw straight even on a hillside without the jacks down.
     In conclusion,I would say that the WM hydraulic mills are the ergonomic machine for an ol guy like me and I WILL OWN ONE SOON!!!!!!!

[Dana]

I sure like my Woodmizer My next mill will be Orange also

[Chris Burchfield]

Our friend Brian was struggling with the same issue you have.   
  I've never been confused, though I have a red/green deficiency, I can see orange
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2006, 08:23:11 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian, Thank you for your service to all of us here in the USA and those across the pond. I bird dogged the orange for about eighteen years. Taking in their improvements and seeing what else was out there. I purchased an orange hydraulic this last July W/51HP CAT. I'm 47, so just ahead of ya. I'm down here in Memphis so holler at me if your passing through or want to visit. The orange, WM's are the product and brand I wanted. I want both a 4XW forks tractor and a circular swing. Have about 2 years, 4 months to retire from the present employeer. I'm getting older and hydraulic was the only way to go. I don't want to have to think a lot either, I added the command control, though walking back and forth would probably been more healthy. Thanks again for your service, Chris.
 
I would also like to comment on the wobbly head - NOT - an issue. I'd also like to comment on the open loading side has been a plus on odd shaped logs I didn't have to trim that could not be done with a four post prior to trim (with a chain saw.)

Last I hope to see a swing blade aluminum & stainless steel saw in my stable with my Glenda in our future. Best wishes keep the sawdust flying.
 

[Burlkraft]

Thanks for all the replys guys. I had hashed over all the same questions for long enough. I just wanted to hear what you guys said. I guess I've made up my mind.

So I  might even have to order one now.

Thanks for your input.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Of all the mills out there, we copied the WM, only bigger. Need I say more  

  Head wobble is hogwash. 

[Burlkraft]

Thanks Deadheader......That's just exactly what I was lookin' for

An Honest man givin' an honest answer

[iain]

Where is your main line of work?

you mentioned a slabber at the start, is that what you need?

i got an old lt40hd that works just so, but man would i like slabber to go with it


woodmizer are cleaning up around europe and in the old USSR and there are a good number of euro makers out there


iain

 

[derhntr]

Burlkraft,

I was in the same boat as you a short time ago. I researched the different mills for over a year. I started doing that while I was in Iraq. I got serious about it after I got home last Dec. It is hard to shop apples to apples, what is standard on one brand is a opption on another brand. I narrowed it down to 2 mill brands. A WM LT40HD and a TH30HT. I would be happy with either model. I watched both models in action and talked with the mill owners.

Both owners were more that happy with their mills and did not bad mouth the other brand. I had countless sleepless nights deciding which to buy, well I finally choose the WM LT40HDG28.

I just picked up my mill on monday I have almost 20 hours on it already. I am still learning it, I am getting faster every day. I am hooked

When it comes right down to it most mills will do a good job, just choose the mill that will work best for you.

The best advice I got from most guys, and would offer the same. Bite the bullet and get hydrulics.

Good Luck

Brian

[Todd]

BAKER
Someone had to say it. 
Todd

[jpgreen]

And.. what every you do buy GripperDogs.. 

[Engineer]

One thing I did overhear last weekend is one of the mill manufacturer's reps, and I won't say who, badmouthing Woodmizer without trying to make their own mills look any better.    I couldn't believe that they weren't trying to sell their mill on it's own merits, just had to lay down some smack on the competition. 

So there's one brand I'll never consider, thanks to their dealer rep.   

[jpgreen]

I had one major dealer sales man tell me point blank Woodmizer:

Headwobble makes inaccurate lumber

Needs at least an hour's time to align the frame each day before operation

Frame flexes making inaccurate lumber

I mentioned I had a chainsaw mill, and he also said they burn up saw heads every time.. 

... I'm sorry to be so bruttally honest but, it kinda erks me off... it was a TK salesman..  

[tcsmpsi]

I believe it is good for a mfr. to know how they might be viewed by the consumer base. 

It may be remembered that initially, I  had asked about the TK mills.  Studying them all, there was one thing which kept coming back to me in my work of 'kicking out' possibilities.

TK's constant  need to belittle other mill's designs, was what got them off my list.

From what I have seen and studied of the mills available,  they are all capable machines.  There are + and - points to them all.  As with ANY cutting tool, ultimate success is determined by the operator. 

Certainly, hydraulics take more of the manual work and 'save time', but has no bearing on quality of the finished product, or what is done with the product. 

Now, the mill I would REALLY, REALLY like to have is currently out of my reasonable financial spectrum.   And, is really out of my current 'need' spectrum.

So, I'm having built what I think is best for MY need and best for a 'weld it, beat it, bang it' repairman/customizer.   

[ronwood]

tcsmpi,

Well put on the last couple of lines in your post? 

Ron

[Engineer]

I guess I'm not the first guy to hear it....             Boooooo.

Sell your product on its' own merits and the recommendations of your customers.   Leave your competition out of it, or you will lose business.

[jpgreen]

One thing that I've seen over and over again is a good company will have an idiot salesman.  It just takes ONE GUY to screw up a whole companies reputation.

What's really bad is the owners or people in charge are not always intune with this, and the word from the sales man goes on, and on.  Word of mouth. 

But then some are.

Take Suffolk/Timberwolf for instance...

I had heard about them being a hard sale, and other bad things about them.  I read their website and was frankly impressed with much of the information.  I talked with 3 sales staff at length, and was also impressed- so much so I bought their setter, and some blades. 

Finally, on the forth time I called in to get a quote on shipping or something, a sales guy launches into his diatribe. He goes on and on about all the pitfalls of other manufacturers, the history of the business and how great they were, and on and on.   

I decided to engage him on a few contradictory comments, and he dodged and weaved and avoided my question, but I really think he was so caught up in his hard sale, he wasn't listening to me.

He would not shut up.  He went on and on, and I was so board, I PM'ed Tom at the vary same time with the phone in one ear, typing away... telling Tom what the idiot was saying..

Well come to find out this guy was the OWNER of Suffolk..    As successful as they are, he has been killing their business for a long time. This guy has no business being in sales, or picking up the phone for that matter.

I finally saw what everyone was telling me about Suffolk.  Good company though with some good products. 

The consumer is smart and no dummy.  The consumer seeks truthful information about a product to make a decision based on what their needs are, and what they have learned.

In sales- trying to BS someone ALWAYS backfires..   

[D._Frederick]

I have seen the different makes of band mills sawing side by side at shows for over 10 years. There are a lot of differences that I would look closely at in the log handling equipment:
Starting with the hydraulics, how is the pump powered, how reliable is it, how much will costs for repairs?

How new is the design of the log clamping system? Is it a two plane system?

What is the design of the log turner? Is it of the chain type? Will it roll a log in both directions?

What is the design of the squaring posts, do they go up and down or do they lay down?

What is the design of the log loader, can the lifting arms be adjusted for width?

Will the hydraulic equipment handle the maximum log size of the mill without problems, will it turn small logs without problems?

I would look at the mill head design the same way, see what features of each kind work the best.