Affordable planer/moulder

[Snag]

I have been eyeing the logosol 4 head planer/moulder, but just cant justify the price tag.  I know its worth it and could get it to pay for itself, but I just dont have the time to put it to work.  I am looking at outfitting most of my 2600sq ft house with hardwood t&g floor and want to do the walls in my 1300sq ft basement in the log cabin siding.  The question, what would be the best bang for my buck.  I would really like to stay under $5k.  It doesnt seem too feasible to me right now to find something in that price range, so I am asking your advice.  Thanks......

Jerome   

[ellmoe]

Jerome,

   You might consider buying a used machine (often they will come with many of the knives you need) and then reselling it when your project is finished. If you really only need it for a one time use this is the cheapest way to go. Of course, another option is to find someone close that has a molder and have them process your wood.

Mark

[Snag]

I dont mind buying a used machine, just dont know what I am looking at, so to speak.  I have heard members speak highly of the logosol, but not familiar with the other brands.  I was all set to buy a woodmaster previously (bought a tractor instead) and now I am wavering.  I have heard good and bad about them.  I would still buy one of those if I was sure I would be happy with it.  I dont mind the time it is going to take to switch from a planer to knives etc, but I want to make sure whatever I buy, I will be getting an excellent finished product.

[Faron]

Snag,  I use my Woodmaster for planing, molding, ripping blanks, and sanding.  Does a great job at these jobs.  I made some T&G with it, but I never liked it much for that.  I would suggest a Woodmaster and a shaper with a feeder for a project like yours.  Use the shaper for the T&G and also as a jointer to get a straight side prior to ripping.  Might be you could go used and get in your price range.

[Daren]

What about the Shop Fox 2hp 7" planer moulder? That is not a suggestion, I am shopping too, that is a question. It's less than a $1000 new. For a "shop tool", not a production machine it doesn't seem bad to me. http://ballewsaw.com/VENDORS/Woodstock/SF_planers/mini_planer_moulder.aspx . I am sure there are other places to buy them, this was just the first link I found that had a decent picture and specs. I see them on E-Bay and C-list new for $800 all the time. And the knives seems to be available and cheap. If I was running tons and trying to make a living at it, I would look at a machine built for that. But a few hundred feet here and there, the $5000 + is pricey for me too.

[solodan]

I am glad I am not the one
I actually lose sleep over this one.
I think I will finally break down and buy the Logosol one day just not yet.

Jerome I think you should really sit down and figure exactly what you need in terms of total material.  For example if you are puting down 4" material on the floor for 2600sf then you need to run 7800 lf of flooring. If you do this on a moulder then double it. 15600 lf is a lot to run on a moulder. That's just under 3 miles. The 3 in 1 machines aren't great for T+G, and that is what has kept me away from them.  A used 4 sided planer/ moulder would be the way to go if you can find one cheap enough, but they are still pretty pricey, and I don't know if you will have any luck finding a used Logosol, I know I haven't. You could always shell out the dough for a new Logosol and sell it to me for 1/2 price when you are done with your house.

[trim4u2nv]

Stetson ross and smithway XL series moulders are a good deal for the money.  There is one for sale on ebay right now.  And I think woodquip has one for sale also.  They require 3 phase or a convertor though.  The williams hussey and there clone (shopfox) are very slow machines that require multiple passes to do deep cutting.  Typical moulders have 15 hp on top and bottom heads versus 1.5 hp on the williams hussey.

[Brad_S.]

Whenever Logosol is mentioned on this forum, it's usually in reference to the PH260, the four headed model. Logosol does make two other, smaller planer/moulders. http://www.logosol.com/webb/planers/3000a-default.php
I didn't look at the specs or prices, but I am satisfied with the quality of my PH260 and assume the same quality can be found in the smaller units.

[Larry]

Smithway XL with 5 HP on the top and bottom, 3 HP on the sides, and 2 HP feed...all single phase.  Few jillion were made under 3 names that I know of.  Mostly used in smaller mill work shops cranking out windows, doors, and flooring.  Sometimes they can be had at bargain basement prices.  Most of the time they will come with a pile of tooling making them extremely attractive.

[Snag]

Thanks for all the info guys, keep it coming.    This is exactly what I was looking for.  I have been searching for a good used unit to make it more affordable.  As I was not able to find any used Logosols, I needed some good info on other brands, seems like I'm getting it.  Thanks.

[Snag]

After looking at some of the stetson ross and smithway machines on the internet, it seems like they are limited to 4" x 2".  Do they make larger capacities or is that it?

[Larry]

I think??? most common is 4" X 2" but I have seen some of the Stetson Ross machines that were 6" X 2".

The Shop Fox machine that Daren was talking about is a China copy of the USA made Williams & Hussey machine.  They have been made since the beginning of time and still are made.  Lot harder to find a bargain here as there is a big demand for em.  Some of the big boys even use em for there short runs.

[Daren]

  Some of the big boys even use em for there short runs.

That is why I am looking. I don't want to get into the millwork business, but I do alot of repro pieces for old house resto like mantle/stair/casework piecework. I could get in with a guy who buys lumber from me who does constant work at some historic buildings (churches, schools, municipal stuff...that is his thing) that only needs small runs and PAYS for it, and has to look hard. The old moulding/millwork he needs to match is mostly walnut and cherry, seems like a way to use some of my lesser stock well that I have plenty of that sells poorly as grade lumber. I don't need a 2 ton monster for a once a month (?) short run.

[trim4u2nv]

I can order knife stock that will fit williams hussey or my mattison heads.  If the customer wants to see a sample, it gets run on the williams hussey (if we have it in a pattern with bolt on knives.)  If a medium run is needed, we can load the steel knives (with bolt holes)  into the bigger machine and run them under light load.  If a long run is needed, we can get HD milled to pattern knives ground.

[Snag]

I have been researching the Logosol DH410 that Brad pointed out.  Right now I am leaning towards it and have ordered the video.  It seems like it can do everything the PH260 can do, just have to feed each board twice as it is only a 2-head.  I like the fact it has a larger capacity than alot of the moulders and can use all the blades made for the 260.  I also like the price tag- $4400.  Anyone see one of these work?  Ever use one?  I would really like some input on this machine if anyone can help.  Thanks.

[mur]

Hi Snag:
I can't comment on the Logosol DH410.  I do run a Logosol 3 phase PH260 through an inverter.  Once you catch onto the "Logosol thinking" you can do some pretty nice work with their machinery.  I find their knives are too soft and I have shifted over to WMoore and their style of North American corrugated tooling.  Longer and cheaper runs.  But, don't "push" the Logosol to try and do things it can't.  If you want to blow wood through, buy a Weineg.  I also use a Woodmaster 18 and have been very pleased with it.  Tooling is better than Logosol and service in Canada - Moldingknives, has been superb.   It all depends at what rate you want to put product out.  I am a one man shop and want to keep it that way - at this time.  A bit of a ramble but hope this helps.
Mur

[low_48]

I had a William & Hussey when I had my custom woodworking business. It was a great machine to run a hundred feet of something. I learned early that you really have to watch the feed side. If you let it slip a little the infeed roll will eat itself alive in just minutes. It's urethane coated and very small in diameter. If you make a second run on really deeply cut moulding, you almost have to keep manual pressure on it so it won't have a chance on slipping. Second run stock has almost no contact area to drive the blank. It set up fast and easy. After wearing in some grooves in different runs, I started taking out alot of material on the table saw with a dado head. Definitely not fast work or even good production rates. The money was good though, since I could easily setup and make as little as 10 or 20' for restoration work. That's it's niche, NOT running flooring. I sold it for what I paid for it, and the customers always paid for the knives. On the funny side, some customers really looked shocked when I told them they would be paying for the knives. "But you will keep it, and I pay for it?" The standard reply, "you can take it with you and put it in the drawer if you want to!"

[Paschale]

I own the Powermatic 15" Planer/Molder combo machine.  I bought it because it had both options, though so far, I've only used it for planing.  It's a 5HP machine, and I bought it for under $2000 I think. 

The way the molding works on this one is that you replace the planer blades with the knives for molding work.  For T&G, I think you'd have to run it through twice, though like I said, I haven't had occasion to use that side of the tool just yet.

You can check it out here, and there are a few reviews of the product.

It takes anything I've given it.  It's a screamer though--pretty DanG loud! 

[Norwiscutter]

Good point mur. I think that to me, the logosol ph 260 is what I would consider an affordable 2 sided planing machine. Other wise a router, shaper, dado setup is what I would use in your situation. Why spend 4400 on a machine that will require two passes when a good router table setup would work for significantly less.  I view my logosol as a very serious hobby machine. But if I am looking at 5-10 mbf a week, the logosol starts to look pretty darn insignificant.

[FeltzE]

Larry,

Is that your Smithway? I've got a XL Moldmatcher almost like it different year, motors, 4x6 capacity I believe. I havn't got it up running yet though. I need to find a oil air mister and get the electric straight, I am afraid I may need the flat belts as well although the ones on look fine I expect they will fail under use as it has been setting for a cpl yrs.

Eric

[Larry]

All mind and ain’t she a real beauty?   Maybe classic would be a better word.  

Wish I had more knowledge on how to operate and maintain her.  Do you have a instruction manual or any documentation at all with your machine?  If you do, take it to one of the copy places and have em run me a copy.  I’ll pay for everything and you will be my hero.

[Greg]

Just curious, does anyone know if Logosol (or other moulder companies) keep a database of owner/operators who could do a batch of t&g for you, rather than buying the machine for your project? Of course transportation costs and handling would be a bear, but...

Greg

[Daren]

"But you will keep it, and I pay for it?" The standard reply, "you can take it with you and put it in the drawer if you want to!"

Good answer 

[KnotBB]

Check the Logosol web site for a list of owners that are willing to demo their machines.  You might find one close and cut a deal.

steve

[firecord]

You might check the Military surplus http://www.govliquidation.com/list/c7267/lna/1.html
Sometimes they have some nice equipment for cheap!

[pineywoods]

I have an 18 inch woodmaster that I use for small runs. It's available with a router mount on the outfeed side, make tounge and groove from rough boards in 2 passes. Just finished running 1700 ft of 4 inch crown moulding, two passes per 12 ft 1x5. Woodmaster has all manner of knives available, but I make my own. The hardened tool steel is available from MCI in 3 ft lengths, quite reasonable.

[Snag]

I was planning on getting the router attachment if I do indeed purchase the woodmaster.  Glad to hear it is working out well for you.  I do intent on doing a descent amount of processing with it, but spread out over a couple years.  This might be a dumb question, but what is the process you perform to make your own knives?

[pineywoods]

Making my own knives-----The first step is to make a template in the exact shape desired. Keep it in a safe place, you'll need it later. I use thin sheet metal. to make the template, cut and filed to shape. Use the template to mark out the shape on a piece of hardened tool steel. (Unless you have access to heat-treating facilities, another story) I use an abrasive cut-off saw to rough out the shape of the cutter. Go slow, cool the metal in water frequently. Too much heat will take the temper out of the metal. Then I go to a standard bench grinder and finish shaping and sharpening freehand. Final sharpening is done using a fine grinding wheel on a special grinder. It uses the template and a guide pin sorta like a pin router guide to get the exact same shape as the template. Mine's home-made, I'll try to get some pictures. Biggest problem I had was finding a source for the steel. I use 1/4 X 1 1/4 available from MCI industrial supply, available in 3 ft lengths.
I've been well pleased with woodmaster..factory support is excellent