Phenomenon; Moisture Content keeps increasing ??

[firewoodguy]

Hi, Can anyone explain why the moisture content of cut and split firewood increased from 38.25% to 53.33% within a few months. Thats about a 39% increase. Click on the attachments to see the NH investigating report. Thanks

Firewoodguy

[Corley5]

Soak it in a pond

[Tom]

Only these observations.

It wasn't at 38.25% to begin with.
   (perhaps it was mismeasured, came from the interior of a stack or was just not dried enough.)

It took on water.
Wood  reaches equilibrium with the ambiant moisture.  Even when dried, it may slowly take on moisture until it is in balance with the surrounding  water content.

Lastly,
I'm glad I don't live where the first choice of a person is to call legal authorities.  We may be headed that way but most people still will talk with one another first and go to the law as a last resort.

[beenthere]

Not without knowing what was tested, when, and how.
If both tests were the oven dry method, then I would suspect soaking as Corley5 suggested, or not dry to begin with (tested separate pieces). If either reading was with a meter, the meter reading is not a valid mc reading. Both indicate moisture over 28%, but an actual reading from a moisture meter of how much over 28% cannot be determined. Just my thoughts and opinion.

[Don P]

I saw what I think was your post on another board. You described a 2 year harvest. The wood was cut to length and piled the first year and split and delivered the next.
I think that first the sample sizes were probably inadequate to say that the avereage went up. and then I think some of the wood was probably composting in the shell inside the pile.
If the authorities, I didn't know there was such a thing for firewood, are adamant about policing it, can you cut and split the first year?

[firewoodguy]

Soak it in a pond

I would guess that is the best and most truthfull explaination there is, but who knows for sure. There could be alot of things to consider. Consider the complaint was orginally about "quality" (e.g. green vs dry firewood) and the firewood sat around for about 2 months, un-attended, and who knows what took place during those 2 months, before the final moisture test results returned. Just think, It takes about 48 hrs for a DNA test , but it take the NHDA about 2 months of stalling to collect 6 pieces of firewood and send them to their lab for testing. Something don't sound right here. I'm just glad the NHDA acted so fast as they did, just think what the moisure content would be if they stalled for another 2 or 4 months. Maybe it would of been around 100% to 150% M/C by then, What ya think !


Firewoodguy

[Murf]

I suspect it could be because of less than subjective testing. 

In the one scan it says something to the effect of  "average surface moisture" in the other it doesn't say at all how the reading was obtained.

I don't think it would be too hard to get a surface reading of 38% from moist bark, in fact you could probably get that reading from wood that is less than 10% inside.

[firewoodguy]

Only these observations.

It wasn't at 38.25% to begin with.
   (perhaps it was mismeasured, came from the interior of a stack or was just not dried enough.)

It took on water.
Wood  reaches equilibrium with the ambiant moisture.  Even when dried, it may slowly take on moisture until it is in balance with the surrounding  water content.

Lastly,
I'm glad I don't live where the first choice of a person is to call legal authorities.  We may be headed that way but most people still will talk with one another first and go to the law as a last resort.

Hi Tom, You could be right on, if it was mis-measured. As to your lastly comment, Did you ever hear of a "sting operation" or a "setup" ? . I heard of things happening like that on evening news stations. But could that be happen here?? Who knows !! . True, most people will call the purchaser back, if they have a problems/questions about their order/delivery that they just recieved. Evidently, that didn't happen here.

Firewoodguy

[firewoodguy]

I suspect it could be because of less than subjective testing. 

In the one scan it says something to the effect of  "average surface moisture" in the other it doesn't say at all how the reading was obtained.

I don't think it would be too hard to get a surface reading of 38% from moist bark, in fact you could probably get that reading from wood that is less than 10% inside.

Good points, I never thought of it that way.

Firewoodguy.

[Texas Ranger]

Seems like the investigaters had some experience, but, wood products is not a common subject among police, or agencies.  If the seller was smart, he would have an investigater or attourney pick u p some of the wood and have it tested by folks that know wood.

[firewoodguy]

Not without knowing what was tested, when, and how.
If both tests were the oven dry method, then I would suspect soaking as Corley5 suggested, or not dry to begin with (tested separate pieces). If either reading was with a meter, the meter reading is not a valid mc reading. Both indicate moisture over 28%, but an actual reading from a moisture meter of how much over 28% cannot be determined. Just my thoughts and opinion.

Hi beenthere, I know where you are coming from and I know what you mean as to the readings. I guess we can have 50 people testing the same product and they might come up with all different results. But which test result is binding/legal ?? (A)-The test results at the time of sale, (B)-the test results about a week after the sale, or (C)-the test results about 2 months after the sale. According to the manufacture of my Lignomat (mini ligno), the readings could be up to 1- 1.5 % off, (either higher or lower than the meter reading)and you have to calculate ( add or subtract up to 1% moisture of the meter reading) for the present outside temperature to average the correct % M/C. According to the directions, you have to make a fresh cut of the log to get an accurate testing from the inside/core of the log. I did one better, I split the full lenght of the firewood log and placed the meter in the center of the lenght of the log for the moisture test. I did everything the instructions said to do, and I'm still wrong. I guess my only concern,at that time,was to have the firewood M/C under 20%. Now a day, when I'm asked this same question, as to the M/C of my firewood, I simply say, "it was 20% M/C when retreaved from the kiln's. it maybe more or maybe less now, I don't know, but it used to be 20% M/C". That reminds me of another "hot-hot" question thats been asked lately. (e.g. ; "if I stack this firewood that I'm ordering from you, will it stack to the amount that I order") Again, My simple reply, Gee ! I don't know what it will re-stack to. But, it is stacked for measurement in the delivery truck when its delivered to you on the day of the sale, for your viewing. So, I guess thats the best way to answer questions so it won't come back later and bit me in the (you know what). I don't even bother with moister meters anymore, I use one of my moisture meters as paper weight now. I can see there are to many varables to contend with, in using moisture meters. Like you said, its not a true valid reading and I'm beginning to believe you. If this issue ever comes up again (moisture content) with the authorities, I'll will be more knowledgeable than before, from what I learned from you and others in the accuracy of moisture meters. Thanks for your replies.


Firewoodguy

[beenthere]

Is that law or rule still in effect?  That was 11 years ago and thought I saw where the wood rules were repealed in '95 or so.

[firewoodguy]

I saw what I think was your post on another board. You described a 2 year harvest. The wood was cut to length and piled the first year and split and delivered the next.
I think that first the sample sizes were probably inadequate to say that the avereage went up. and then I think some of the wood was probably composting in the shell inside the pile.
If the authorities, I didn't know there was such a thing for firewood, are adamant about policing it, can you cut and split the first year?

Hi Don, Yes I did post on the other thread. As to the NH authorities policing/enforcing quality of firewood. If you read the news article that beenthere posted in his reply and others NHDA publications. Mr Cote (NHDA inspector) claims there is no definitions on the quality of firewood (e.g green, seasoned or dry or M/C meaning one of the same ??), I gather it means quality of the firewood is not enforceable or they (NHDA) do not investigate complaints on the quality consumers recieves, due to the fact you can't enforce a regulation or law you don't have. Then you read the investagators report, It states he ( Mr Young) reported to a complaint of quality from a consumer(see first paragraph of report) So, who do you believe?? It seams that NH has two (2) regulations/laws. (one) being the written NH laws/regulations and (two) the un-written NH laws/regulations. As to your question, "........cut and split first year ?"
We do not process (from green wood/trees) firewood anymore since 1996. We only carry firewood thats is cured/seasoned via kiln drying. I find that this method does and will elimate any future problems.

Firewoodguy

[beenthere]

For your own good and knowledge of your firewood product, I sure hope you are doing the oven dry test method to know the true answer. 

[firewoodguy]

Seems like the investigaters had some experience, but, wood products is not a common subject among police, or agencies.  If the seller was smart, he would have an investigater or attourney pick u p some of the wood and have it tested by folks that know wood.

Hi, Texas Range, Thats a good thought !, But it takes time to get a court order to enter private property to get samples and have them tested, also the samples would be different than the state tested. Furthermore, It was explained to me, that any test results from a state agency is binding in court, What you have to prove it that the test they (NH Lab) performed maybe in-correct or false readings via in-accurate performing the orginal test (e.g. like forgetting a step or to, or contaminating the evidence some how, failing to product a work sheet in identifying each piece being tested and etc. in performing the lab test). If that can be proven, then all the evidence of the state testing the M/C of the firewood would not be submissable and can be thrown out. I was told, the only "legal way" is to perform the M/C testing before hand from a third party on each piece of firewood and recieve a certificate on each piece of firewood. I don't think that method will work for me or any other firewood dealer. Anyway, you have good thoughts though.

Firewoodguy

[firewoodguy]

For your own good and knowledge of your firewood product, I sure hope you are doing the oven dry test method to know the true answer. 

I don't test for the % M/C anymore (meter or oven). All of my firewood is Kiln Dried. I can tell you what the M/C was or should of been when it was retreaved from the kilns. But whether the M/C is the same today as when it was retreaved from the kiln's, I can't answer that, because I don't know.

Firewoodguy

[beenthere]

How can you tell that?    without measuring mc with meter or oven? 

[firewoodguy]

Is that law or rule still in effect?  That was 11 years ago and thought I saw where the wood rules were repealed in '95 or so.

The new regulation states it went into effect July 10,1994. So, I'm assuming this insodent was under the new NH regulations and is still in effect.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XL/438/438-35.htm

TITLE XL
AGRICULTURE, HORTICULTURE AND ANIMAL HUSBANDRY
CHAPTER 438
STANDARDS FOR WEIGHTS AND MEASURES
Section 438:35
    438:35 Wood. – [Repealed 1994, 100:8, eff. July 10, 1994.]

[firewoodguy]

How can you tell that?    without measuring mc with meter or oven? 

Thats what their brochure states about their K/D firewood. I believe they use the weight method. They weigh the baskets full of green firewood before it is placed into the kiln. after a 3 or 4 days, they weigh the baskets before they retreave them from the kiln. It almost like the oven method in determining the true moisture content. Thats why I purchase all my K/D firewood for. I have an invoice / (paper trail) for every delivery for future reference.

Firewoodguy

[getoverit]

the first one says that the firewood was stacked on her driveway. Wood can pick up moisture from cement.

Secondly, if this firewood had been stacked openly on her driveway for even a few days, it could have been rained on or snowed on which could have increased the moisture content.

the second file says that the wood was tested some 2 months after the fact (in februrary in New Hampshire) where I'm sure it had snowed, sleeted, rained  on, and all the time the wood was stacked on a driveway. There is no mention of any kind of covering over the firewood, what kind of firewood it is (kind of tree) and no record of it ever being covered or sheltered from the weather.

even green wood stacked for 2 months should have dryed out some, unless it was frozen the whole time or had been exposed to the elements for the whole time.

[treecyclers]

After reading both documents, and perusing the replies, I think that the buyer has no leg to stand on, personally.
First, wood is inherently like a sponge. Even when dried in a kiln to 10%, when the ambient moisture exceeds that, it will soak it up. Snow/rain increases this even further, as the direct contact with the precipitation will hasten how quickly the wood picks it up.
Second, unless the wood was stored in a dry, well ventilated area, on blocking of some sort, instead of outside, there is no reasonable way to ensure that the m/c will remain at 10% or thereabouts.
Third, the client is being highly unreasonable in their expectations (based upon what I read and my own impressions thereof), that the wood would magically remain at the stated m/c upon removal from the kiln.

That all being said, I would stand my ground, if only on principle.
I do believe that, since you delivered the product at the specified time at the specified moisture with the reasonable expectation that it would be sitting on their driveway and thus the increase in moisture content is the result of the buyer's negligence in promptly storing the products as delivered, but instead was left on the ground/driveway in the weather which is inherently volatile at that time of the year in NH, the resulting m/c increase is due to negligence on the part of the buyer.
A viable case could theoretically be made either way, depending on what your performance was specified as in the agreement.

I would also suggest that the gene pool in NH recieve a little more chlorine. Might make people a little nicer to each other. 
And, firewoodguy, I think you're safe on that one.

[Jeff]

I have a completely different take on this but I think I'll keep it to myself.

[firewoodguy]

I have a completely different take on this but I think I'll keep it to myself.

Jeff, what is your imput on this situation ?? I would like to here (maybe all of us would) like to hear your thoughts. I promise I won't pick an argument with you. Ha Ha !

Firewoodguy

[getoverit]

Other than the fact that I have NEVER heard of kiln dried firewood in the first place, I would like to hear your take on it Jeff. Maybe you see something that we dont see?

[beenthere]

After reading everything over again, I think you were selling green firewood in the beginning (1994/1995), and maybe (??) didn't know it. But you got 'found out'. I don't like their method in NH, but that is beside the point.

Now I just learned that you are apparently buying "kiln dry" firewood and re-selling that, but you don't know what the mc is of the wood you are buying, and therefore don't know what it is when you are selling it. I think you need to know more about your product, especially the mc. Learn how to test using the oven dry method. 

Now, I'll bow out. 

[Jeff]

I guarantee you wont pick an argument with me.  

I believe that enforcement did the job they are trained to do and I also believe that this was not a random opportunity to pick on someone. I believe there were other incidents probably leading up to this and yes, it probably was a sting operation. A successful one. I form my opinions from instinct, observation from dealing with thousands of people and watching how they present themselves on this forum along with other forums. Other forums in paticular in the case of someone new. When I have a heads up on a potential situation from a couple different sources before it even surfaces, that also gives me insight.

 Ron Scott and I are both aware of individuals in the past who try to come on the forum or the other forest products related information websites to try to create statements or information to use as a defense by presenting a one sided case. Weather this is what this is or not is not for me to decide other then on a personal level, but If there is one in the wood pile, I usually get a wif of it before I see it.

You asked me.

[firewoodguy]

Other than the fact that I have NEVER heard of kiln dried firewood in the first place, I would like to hear your take on it Jeff. Maybe you see something that we dont see?

Curing firewood via kiln drying is about the same process as curing kiln dried lumber. They process the firewood (from so called seasoned logs)into the finish product and place it (thrown loosely) in 1/2 cord steel baskets and heat the kiln to about 160 - 180 degrees for about 3 to 4 days. Using green logs or logs thats been sitting in the ice and snow may take an extra day or so to lower the M/C down to about 20% to 25% M/C. Kiln dried firewood is very common in New England region.

Firewoodguy

[red]

3or 4 days  does not sound long enough

what kind of kiln and how big is it

[getoverit]

I agree with red.. heating it to those temps for 3-4 days may kill the bugs, but i cant see where this would lower the MC at all, especially if there is no other means of removing the moisture RE: a dehumidifier.

Personally, I dont want seasoned firewood anyway.. it burns too quickly.

Thanks for the reply Jeff !

[red]

so if you take frozen wood  heat it up for 3 or 4 days

deliver it to someones house   then the moisture increases

[firewoodguy]

After reading everything over again, I think you were selling green firewood in the beginning (1994/1995), and maybe (??) didn't know it. But you got 'found out'. I don't like their method in NH, but that is beside the point.

Now I just learned that you are apparently buying "kiln dry" firewood and re-selling that, but you don't know what the mc is of the wood you are buying, and therefore don't know what it is when you are selling it. I think you need to know more about your product, especially the mc. Learn how to test using the oven dry method. 

(1);I guess you can call it green wood if you like. But technically speaking, green wood means freshly cut. I guess you could say that the trees/tops was cut down for a year, but ,yes, it was re-cut to firewood lenght the following year. and yes I thought it wasn't green/freshly cut tops when I started cutting up the tops in the winter of 1993-1994. that was cut from live trees in the winter of 1992-1993. So basically, the firewood that was delivered in Nov 1994 was cut from live trees in 1992-1993 winter season.
(2); As to the second question " ...don't know what the M/C is .. don't know what I'm selling..". You have to realize, I'm not selling or offering M/C. I'm offering/selling kiln dried firewood, I'm not selling the moisture content. Again, technically speaking, Freshly cut living trees are logged and transported to the mill and processed into firewood and placed in a kiln for 3 to 5 days and then delivered in bulk. This whole process takes less than 2 weeks. Would this process also be called green wood ?? Take in consideration that the trees has only been cut down in less than 2 weeks. Its a fast way of curing firewood so its ready to burn within a few weeks from being harvested. I know what I'm selling and I don't think I need to know any more of my product than what I need to know. Remember, Ive been doing this method since fall of 1996.
(3); As to knowing the M/C of the products I'm selling, Everyone on this board states that the M/C changes ever day and that also been proven by NHDA.
I think it would be stupid of me to continue to advertise the M/C from the experiece I had with NHDA back in 1994-1995 situation. Don't you agree ?? The moisture content of the firewood when retreaved from the kilns averages 20% M/C. That don't mean the M/C won't increase or decrease or will remain the same. My firewood doesn't see precipation from the time its removed from the kilns untill it delivered to the customer. Furthermore, my firewood remains dry while in an enclosed storage facility.
I don't mind the NHDA regulation, but I don't like there tactics or been treat fairly from previous experiences. But thats only my thoughts.

Firewoodguy


Now, I'll bow out. 

[firewoodguy]

so if you take frozen wood  heat it up for 3 or 4 days

deliver it to someones house   then the moisture increases

Red, is this a question for me??? if it is, you might have to re-phrase it some what !!

Firewoodguy.

[Corley5]

I'd rather have green wood too and many of my customers who are serious about using wood for heat like their orders mixed 50/50 green and seasoned.

[firewoodguy]

3or 4 days  does not sound long enough

what kind of kiln and how big is it

I can't tell you that, because I don't know. I can only tell you about the finish product that it produces. Try search online by typing in "Kiln Drying Firewood". That should give you alot of info on the styles and how they perform.

Firewoodguy

[red]

now I know why     " Not all firewood is created equal."

[Jeff]

I can't tell you that, because I don't know.

It sure seems like you should know. If you are in the business of selling a product for 16 years it certainly seems you should be able to answer any question regarding that product (as beenthere might add, IMHO)

[Chet]

Firewoodguy,
All I got ta say is that has to be one humdinger of a kiln that can bring green fire wood to 20%-25% moisture content using temps of 160°-180° for 3 to 4 days. 

[bitternut]

First I would like to say that in my opinion 20% mc firewood is not dry or seasoned. It seems to me that they put the wood in the kiln mainly to kill the bugs. I air dry my wood  from green to about 12% or 13% in one summer and fall. The wood is cut to 16" length, then split and stacked uncovered in the open air. I have a Mini Ligno DX pin type moisture meter that I check it with.

Second I would like to say that wood does not dry sitting in the woods, especially in log form. I once tried burning hickory that had been dead for at least 5 years. It was a blow down hickory that I cut up and split. You could feel the moisture on the split wood with your fingers and it would hardly burn.  You had to mix it into a hot fire one piece at a time to get it to burn.

Because of my second statement I would like to add that you guys that like burning green wood ( Corley 5 ) that you are losing heat because you have to vaporize the moisture in the wood before the wood will burn. This requires heat which you are not getting the benefit of being warmed by. The secret to controlling the rate of burn is limiting the air supply not throwing wet wood into the fire. Control the air and you can control the rate of burn. I heat my house with a small Vermont Castings Intrepid II woodstove stuck in a fireplace hearth so I have burned a stick or two of wood. This is my fourth woodstove and I have been using this one for about ten years.

I would think that Firewood guy should know quite a bit about wood if he has been selling it for as long as he has. He should also have an idea about what works and what doesn't to produce good quality firewood. If you sell a good product they will come back the following year for more of the same. If not they will go elsewhere for their wood. If I were Firewood guy I would get myself a good moisture meter and perform a few oven tests to check the meter. Just remember Firewoodguy that knowledge is power and I think you definitely need to learn more about the wood you are buying and selling.

[Corley5]

I'm burning soft maple right now that was cut a few weeks ago with the sap in it.  When I ran it through the processor moisture was squeezing out of it.  I'm not burning anymore of it or any less for that matter than the wood I just finished up that was cut in Sept. of last year.  There is actually less creosote build up in the firebox than with the drier wood.  The worst wood for creosote I've ever burned was sugar maple that had been in the barn for 25+ years.  The inside of the stove had creosote stalactites.  I've heard all the arguments about green vs. dry and they both have merit but we've always burned green wood and as long as you keep the fire going it works just fine and lasts longer than dry.    Dad burned green wood in his basement furnace.  I burned green wood in two different stoves in this house.  We've both got outdoor boilers now.  My Grandpa used to burn a mix of green elm and coal when he was working out.  A Great Uncle told Dad to take a load of dry buzz poles back home because they were too dry.  Dad thought he was doing him a favor     The secret to burning wood is indeed air supply.  If the wood is green or not as seasoned as it could be it quite simply requires more air to burn.  Just open the draft more .  I'd rather have a hot smaller fire than a smoldery bigger fire that's condensing creosote in the chimney anyway.  I sold a load of mixed last winter that lasted the customer a month.  The next load was all nicely seasoned and lasted 3 weeks.  Same kind of wood, same outside temps.  We all know what works best for us.   From the pics on Firewoodguy's website I've got a good idea what may have happened.  They show piles of wood on pallets or something similar wrapped in clear plastic with no vapor barrier underneath.  Wood left stacked like that will get wetter.  Wood should never be completely covered.  Only the top of the pile should have something on it.   If air can't circulate moisture will collect and the wood will rot.

[firewoodguy]

First I would like to say that in my opinion 20% mc firewood is not dry or seasoned. It seems to me that they put the wood in the kiln mainly to kill the bugs. I air dry my wood  from green to about 12% or 13% in one summer and fall. The wood is cut to 16" length, then split and stacked uncovered in the open air. I have a Mini Ligno DX pin type moisture meter that I check it with.

Second I would like to say that wood does not dry sitting in the woods, especially in log form. I once tried burning hickory that had been dead for at least 5 years. It was a blow down hickory that I cut up and split. You could feel the moisture on the split wood with your fingers and it would hardly burn.  You had to mix it into a hot fire one piece at a time to get it to burn.

Because of my second statement I would like to add that you guys that like burning green wood ( Corley 5 ) that you are losing heat because you have to vaporize the moisture in the wood before the wood will burn. This requires heat which you are not getting the benefit of being warmed by. The secret to controlling the rate of burn is limiting the air supply not throwing wet wood into the fire. Control the air and you can control the rate of burn. I heat my house with a small Vermont Castings Intrepid II woodstove stuck in a fireplace hearth so I have burned a stick or two of wood. This is my fourth woodstove and I have been using this one for about ten years.

I would think that Firewood guy should know quite a bit about wood if he has been selling it for as long as he has. He should also have an idea about what works and what doesn't to produce good quality firewood. If you sell a good product they will come back the following year for more of the same. If not they will go elsewhere for their wood. If I were Firewood guy I would get myself a good moisture meter and perform a few oven tests to check the meter. Just remember Firewoodguy that knowledge is power and I think you definitely need to learn more about the wood you are buying and selling.

Hi bitternut, As to commenting to your 4th paragraph. It seems that you also have a good moisture meter like I do. I have the mini ligno which I purchased new back in 1994. I used this meter as the directions stated, where the M/C reading was less than 20%. About 4 days later, the M/C was verified by NHDA meter which then tested 38.25%. So, I thought I knew what the M/C was, but come to find out, I was proven wrong.
Here in NH, in advertising, disclosing or discussing the "%M/C" or using the word "dry" in the sale of firewood is prohibited by the NHDA/W&M. Click on  "attachment". During a  meeting with NHDA inspector on Dec 2, 1994, He "suggest that I comply with ?? "  that I (via voluntary statement/affidavit) replace the words "% M/C test " and the word "dry" in present classified adds and in all other advertising and in any and all advertisments in the future. (see paragraph 3). This is due to the inspectors suggestion that I do agree with the inspector, that the the "% of M/C" and using the word "Dry" is mis-leading to the public and shall not use these terms ever again. The affidavit is sign/witnessed by Mr Young (NHDA inspector NHDA). In closing, I do know alot about my products, But I only can (legally) disclose, discuss or advertise what I can do or can't do legally in NH, reference to the method of sale of products thats outline in the present firewood regulations (including but not limiting to all affidavits) that was effective on July 10,1994. You might not think that I know what my products are or what they consist of, But I'm legal in NH, in not knowing or disclosing the % M/C  or Dry terms in my firewood. If I'm prohibited in using these terms in NH, then there is no reason that I have to know what the "M/C" is or how "DRY" the firewood is!!. I know what NY regulations are, but here in NH , they are some what different than NY is. Don't you agree??

firewoodguy

[red]

dry-mis-leading

PHENOMENON   keeps  increasing

have a nice day

[firewoodguy]

I can't tell you that, because I don't know.

It sure seems like you should know. If you are in the business of selling a product for 16 years it certainly seems you should be able to answer any question regarding that product (as beenthere might add, IMHO)

True, I should know what my moisture contect is in my products, so I can pass that info on to the consumer. But thats not the case with me in NH. (See attachment). According to NHDA inspector, ( "WHICH I STILL FULLY AGREE WITH HIM and all other NHDA inspectors") is misleading to disclose the  "% M/C" or the advertise the word "Dry" in the sale of firewood in NH. But thats the way it is in NH.

Firewoodguy

[attachment deleted by admin]

[bitternut]

Well Firewood guy I guess maybe you should just advertise your wood as firewood. If its any good they will come back for more. I know in my area there are a couple of dealers that have a regular customer list for wood and they almost have a waiting list to get on it.

Heck, to me seasoned wood is wood that is cut, split and allowed to reach EMC. If it won't light easily then I guess maybe it needs to be dried more. The guy that filled out that report should take some classes in penmanship. I could hardly read it.

For you guys like Corley5 that like green wood you might want to read this over. It explains all about how much heat is needed to vaporize water and what happens when water changes state or form.

http://daphne.palomar.edu/jthorngren/latent.htm

Also Corley5 there is more to burning wood than just how dry or green your wood is and how much air you give the fire. What worked for grandpappy won't work for everyone. The stove needs to be sized right for the space you are heating, the chimney needs to provide the proper draft and the design of the stove itself to provide secondary combustion before the gases go up the chimney need to be right.
You are 100% right about a hot fire being best. Get a pile of dry leaves burning sometime and then throw a pile of wet leaves on top and let us know what happens will ya.

I got my first experience with woodstoves over 60 years ago when we had a combination wood-coal cook stove in our kitchen. One of my jobs as a kid was to keep the woodbox full for that stove. Since we lived on a farm with orchards all of our wood was fruit wood. In those days the trees were all large trees and when you trimmed or cut any down you got quite a bit of wood from them. All the limbs were left full length and stacked vertical in tee pee fashion. Once a year we would hook up the buzz saw and buzz up all the stack. That stove was our only heat many a times when winter storms would knock down the power lines and peoples furnaces would not run. Used to happen a lot but that was back when everything was 25 cycle ( remember ). Anyways I do have a little knowledge of burning wood and I guess you do too, so if it works for you more power to ya.

[Corley5]

Firewoodguy, do you unwrap the wood after it's delivered.  I see on your website pics of stacks of wood almost completely wrapped in plastic.  That's a problem.  Wood needs to breathe.  Only the top of a pile should be covered.  Wood that is wrapped on all sides and the top with the bottom open will soak up moisture like sponge.  I still prefer green wood

[firewoodguy]

Firewoodguy, do you unwrap the wood after it's delivered.  I see on your website pics of stacks of wood almost completely wrapped in plastic.  That's a problem.  Wood needs to breathe.  Only the top of a pile should be covered.  Wood that is wrapped on all sides and the top with the bottom open will soak up moisture like sponge.  I still prefer green wood

Hi Corlry5,  Thats the way the firewood is delivered (wrapped). If the customer wants to un-wrap it after the deliver, thats fine too, I don't have a problem with that.  I haven't had any consumer complaints about the wrapping since I commenced this method back in 1996.

Firewoodguy

[red]

code of ethics ?

[red]

True, I should know what my moisture contect is in my products, so I can pass that info on to the consumer. But thats not the case with me in NH. (See attachment). According to NHDA inspector, ( "WHICH I STILL FULLY AGREE WITH HIM and all other NHDA inspectors") is misleading to disclose the  "% M/C" or the advertise the word "Dry" in the sale of firewood in NH. But thats the way it is in NH.

Firewoodguy

you asked and answered your own question   

and it took a WEEK !   the people here  have tried to HELP

some bring smiles when they enter 
 
         some bring smiles when they  leave

                    some bring smiles  both times

BYE

[SwampDonkey]

Corley already knows my stance on dry versus green firewood.  Basically I'de freeze to death trying to burn green wood.

But, why would someone selling firewood advertize MC % of their wood when it changes as soon as it's out of the kiln? That is just inviting grief from people who have nothing better to do.  I don't know how you could ever enforce a law based on MC % of wood removed from a kiln and stored in all manners known to man. That must have been a real genius pencil pusher that came up with that one.   [Note: I never read any of the posted reports.]

[bitternut]

Since I reload my own rifle and pistol ammo I got the idea today that maybe I should grab a hunk of my firewood and whittle out a couple of 2" cubes of wood. I could then weigh the pieces on my gram scale that I use for reloading. A reloading scale is real accurate and should give pretty precise results. Of course I would  check with my moisture meter first and once done with the test I will know just how good my meter is and just how dry my wood is. For those that have done the test does a oven work better or a microwave. I have both available all day since the wife is away at work and will be none the wiser. Any advice on the best heat to use or power levels from those who have experience? Could the wood explode if overheated too fast in the microwave? Any advice is welcome.    

[wiam]

I am with corley on the green wood.  I thought the guy I bought my outdoor boiler from was nuts when he told me to burn green wood.  All I know is that I use less wood when I burn green wood.(period)

Will

[getoverit]

I'm with you wiam and corley.... I can burn a dump truck full of "seasoned" wood to keep warm, or, I can burn a pickup truck load of green wood to stay warm. It is harder to get started burning, but it pays off in the long run to burn green wood IMHO.

[Jeff]

Ken yer in florida, you can burn a freeze dried gater and stay warm.

[Buzz-sawyer]

He dont burn em....accept as calories

[firewoodguy]

Hi Red,
True !! I did answer my own question (ref to NH methods ), but, we also deliver into MA and ME and we ship to other states. I think my orginal question was " ..how does moisture content increase.. " and I got alot of imput on this subject, which I appreciate. Thank You all and BYE to you too.

Firewoodguy

[getoverit]

that's all I got to say about that
                                             -Forest Gump

[Jeff]

There is anothr gump saying I like to quote from time to time as well. 

[Paul_H]

"I gotta pee"

[getoverit]

 

I love that movie

[Jeff]

"I gotta pee"

 


That one will do just fine but I was thinking of something different.

[Darin]

Bitternut,

 For those that have done the test does a oven work better or a microwave

If the tests are done properly either method will end up with the same result, although the microwave will be faster.

I have both available all day since the wife is away at work and will be none the wiser.

If you do what I did with the microwave, then she will know.
Ever seen someone make charcoal with the microwave?

Start the microwave on the lowest power and watch it so you don't do charcoal. It does make fine charcoal, but it sure stinks up the house.

I think a scales from a reloader would work fine but have never tried my scales as we have a very accurate scales at work.

If I remember correctly it will take about 6 to 8 hours in a oven at about 200 to 250 degrees. In any case heat until you no longer lose weight.

Hope this helps,
Darin

[Darin]

I see (can't see) the color green does not do so good. You should be able to hit the print button and see a preview and read without printing.

sorry
Darin

[bitternut]

Thanks Darin that helps a lot. I think maybe I will try the oven the next cold rainy day when I won't mind being in the house most of the day. Best not take the chance of stinking up the micro-wave. Wife would not be a happy camper if I stunk up her micro-wave.