Phenomenon; Moisture Content keeps increasing ??

[firewoodguy]

Hi, Can anyone explain why the moisture content of cut and split firewood increased from 38.25% to 53.33% within a few months. Thats about a 39% increase. Click on the attachments to see the NH investigating report. Thanks

Firewoodguy

[Corley5]

Soak it in a pond

[Tom]

Only these observations.

It wasn't at 38.25% to begin with.
   (perhaps it was mismeasured, came from the interior of a stack or was just not dried enough.)

It took on water.
Wood  reaches equilibrium with the ambiant moisture.  Even when dried, it may slowly take on moisture until it is in balance with the surrounding  water content.

Lastly,
I'm glad I don't live where the first choice of a person is to call legal authorities.  We may be headed that way but most people still will talk with one another first and go to the law as a last resort.

[beenthere]

Not without knowing what was tested, when, and how.
If both tests were the oven dry method, then I would suspect soaking as Corley5 suggested, or not dry to begin with (tested separate pieces). If either reading was with a meter, the meter reading is not a valid mc reading. Both indicate moisture over 28%, but an actual reading from a moisture meter of how much over 28% cannot be determined. Just my thoughts and opinion.

[Don P]

I saw what I think was your post on another board. You described a 2 year harvest. The wood was cut to length and piled the first year and split and delivered the next.
I think that first the sample sizes were probably inadequate to say that the avereage went up. and then I think some of the wood was probably composting in the shell inside the pile.
If the authorities, I didn't know there was such a thing for firewood, are adamant about policing it, can you cut and split the first year?

[firewoodguy]

Soak it in a pond

I would guess that is the best and most truthfull explaination there is, but who knows for sure. There could be alot of things to consider. Consider the complaint was orginally about "quality" (e.g. green vs dry firewood) and the firewood sat around for about 2 months, un-attended, and who knows what took place during those 2 months, before the final moisture test results returned. Just think, It takes about 48 hrs for a DNA test , but it take the NHDA about 2 months of stalling to collect 6 pieces of firewood and send them to their lab for testing. Something don't sound right here. I'm just glad the NHDA acted so fast as they did, just think what the moisure content would be if they stalled for another 2 or 4 months. Maybe it would of been around 100% to 150% M/C by then, What ya think !


Firewoodguy

[Murf]

I suspect it could be because of less than subjective testing. 

In the one scan it says something to the effect of  "average surface moisture" in the other it doesn't say at all how the reading was obtained.

I don't think it would be too hard to get a surface reading of 38% from moist bark, in fact you could probably get that reading from wood that is less than 10% inside.

[firewoodguy]

Only these observations.

It wasn't at 38.25% to begin with.
   (perhaps it was mismeasured, came from the interior of a stack or was just not dried enough.)

It took on water.
Wood  reaches equilibrium with the ambiant moisture.  Even when dried, it may slowly take on moisture until it is in balance with the surrounding  water content.

Lastly,
I'm glad I don't live where the first choice of a person is to call legal authorities.  We may be headed that way but most people still will talk with one another first and go to the law as a last resort.

Hi Tom, You could be right on, if it was mis-measured. As to your lastly comment, Did you ever hear of a "sting operation" or a "setup" ? . I heard of things happening like that on evening news stations. But could that be happen here?? Who knows !! . True, most people will call the purchaser back, if they have a problems/questions about their order/delivery that they just recieved. Evidently, that didn't happen here.

Firewoodguy

[firewoodguy]

I suspect it could be because of less than subjective testing. 

In the one scan it says something to the effect of  "average surface moisture" in the other it doesn't say at all how the reading was obtained.

I don't think it would be too hard to get a surface reading of 38% from moist bark, in fact you could probably get that reading from wood that is less than 10% inside.

Good points, I never thought of it that way.

Firewoodguy.

[Texas Ranger]

Seems like the investigaters had some experience, but, wood products is not a common subject among police, or agencies.  If the seller was smart, he would have an investigater or attourney pick u p some of the wood and have it tested by folks that know wood.

[firewoodguy]

Not without knowing what was tested, when, and how.
If both tests were the oven dry method, then I would suspect soaking as Corley5 suggested, or not dry to begin with (tested separate pieces). If either reading was with a meter, the meter reading is not a valid mc reading. Both indicate moisture over 28%, but an actual reading from a moisture meter of how much over 28% cannot be determined. Just my thoughts and opinion.

Hi beenthere, I know where you are coming from and I know what you mean as to the readings. I guess we can have 50 people testing the same product and they might come up with all different results. But which test result is binding/legal ?? (A)-The test results at the time of sale, (B)-the test results about a week after the sale, or (C)-the test results about 2 months after the sale. According to the manufacture of my Lignomat (mini ligno), the readings could be up to 1- 1.5 % off, (either higher or lower than the meter reading)and you have to calculate ( add or subtract up to 1% moisture of the meter reading) for the present outside temperature to average the correct % M/C. According to the directions, you have to make a fresh cut of the log to get an accurate testing from the inside/core of the log. I did one better, I split the full lenght of the firewood log and placed the meter in the center of the lenght of the log for the moisture test. I did everything the instructions said to do, and I'm still wrong. I guess my only concern,at that time,was to have the firewood M/C under 20%. Now a day, when I'm asked this same question, as to the M/C of my firewood, I simply say, "it was 20% M/C when retreaved from the kiln's. it maybe more or maybe less now, I don't know, but it used to be 20% M/C". That reminds me of another "hot-hot" question thats been asked lately. (e.g. ; "if I stack this firewood that I'm ordering from you, will it stack to the amount that I order") Again, My simple reply, Gee ! I don't know what it will re-stack to. But, it is stacked for measurement in the delivery truck when its delivered to you on the day of the sale, for your viewing. So, I guess thats the best way to answer questions so it won't come back later and bit me in the (you know what). I don't even bother with moister meters anymore, I use one of my moisture meters as paper weight now. I can see there are to many varables to contend with, in using moisture meters. Like you said, its not a true valid reading and I'm beginning to believe you. If this issue ever comes up again (moisture content) with the authorities, I'll will be more knowledgeable than before, from what I learned from you and others in the accuracy of moisture meters. Thanks for your replies.


Firewoodguy

[beenthere]

Is that law or rule still in effect?  That was 11 years ago and thought I saw where the wood rules were repealed in '95 or so.

[firewoodguy]

I saw what I think was your post on another board. You described a 2 year harvest. The wood was cut to length and piled the first year and split and delivered the next.
I think that first the sample sizes were probably inadequate to say that the avereage went up. and then I think some of the wood was probably composting in the shell inside the pile.
If the authorities, I didn't know there was such a thing for firewood, are adamant about policing it, can you cut and split the first year?

Hi Don, Yes I did post on the other thread. As to the NH authorities policing/enforcing quality of firewood. If you read the news article that beenthere posted in his reply and others NHDA publications. Mr Cote (NHDA inspector) claims there is no definitions on the quality of firewood (e.g green, seasoned or dry or M/C meaning one of the same ??), I gather it means quality of the firewood is not enforceable or they (NHDA) do not investigate complaints on the quality consumers recieves, due to the fact you can't enforce a regulation or law you don't have. Then you read the investagators report, It states he ( Mr Young) reported to a complaint of quality from a consumer(see first paragraph of report) So, who do you believe?? It seams that NH has two (2) regulations/laws. (one) being the written NH laws/regulations and (two) the un-written NH laws/regulations. As to your question, "........cut and split first year ?"
We do not process (from green wood/trees) firewood anymore since 1996. We only carry firewood thats is cured/seasoned via kiln drying. I find that this method does and will elimate any future problems.

Firewoodguy

[beenthere]

For your own good and knowledge of your firewood product, I sure hope you are doing the oven dry test method to know the true answer. 

[firewoodguy]

Seems like the investigaters had some experience, but, wood products is not a common subject among police, or agencies.  If the seller was smart, he would have an investigater or attourney pick u p some of the wood and have it tested by folks that know wood.

Hi, Texas Range, Thats a good thought !, But it takes time to get a court order to enter private property to get samples and have them tested, also the samples would be different than the state tested. Furthermore, It was explained to me, that any test results from a state agency is binding in court, What you have to prove it that the test they (NH Lab) performed maybe in-correct or false readings via in-accurate performing the orginal test (e.g. like forgetting a step or to, or contaminating the evidence some how, failing to product a work sheet in identifying each piece being tested and etc. in performing the lab test). If that can be proven, then all the evidence of the state testing the M/C of the firewood would not be submissable and can be thrown out. I was told, the only "legal way" is to perform the M/C testing before hand from a third party on each piece of firewood and recieve a certificate on each piece of firewood. I don't think that method will work for me or any other firewood dealer. Anyway, you have good thoughts though.

Firewoodguy

[firewoodguy]

For your own good and knowledge of your firewood product, I sure hope you are doing the oven dry test method to know the true answer. 

I don't test for the % M/C anymore (meter or oven). All of my firewood is Kiln Dried. I can tell you what the M/C was or should of been when it was retreaved from the kilns. But whether the M/C is the same today as when it was retreaved from the kiln's, I can't answer that, because I don't know.

Firewoodguy

[beenthere]

How can you tell that?    without measuring mc with meter or oven? 

[firewoodguy]

Is that law or rule still in effect?  That was 11 years ago and thought I saw where the wood rules were repealed in '95 or so.

The new regulation states it went into effect July 10,1994. So, I'm assuming this insodent was under the new NH regulations and is still in effect.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XL/438/438-35.htm

TITLE XL
AGRICULTURE, HORTICULTURE AND ANIMAL HUSBANDRY
CHAPTER 438
STANDARDS FOR WEIGHTS AND MEASURES
Section 438:35
    438:35 Wood. – [Repealed 1994, 100:8, eff. July 10, 1994.]

[firewoodguy]

How can you tell that?    without measuring mc with meter or oven? 

Thats what their brochure states about their K/D firewood. I believe they use the weight method. They weigh the baskets full of green firewood before it is placed into the kiln. after a 3 or 4 days, they weigh the baskets before they retreave them from the kiln. It almost like the oven method in determining the true moisture content. Thats why I purchase all my K/D firewood for. I have an invoice / (paper trail) for every delivery for future reference.

Firewoodguy

[getoverit]

the first one says that the firewood was stacked on her driveway. Wood can pick up moisture from cement.

Secondly, if this firewood had been stacked openly on her driveway for even a few days, it could have been rained on or snowed on which could have increased the moisture content.

the second file says that the wood was tested some 2 months after the fact (in februrary in New Hampshire) where I'm sure it had snowed, sleeted, rained  on, and all the time the wood was stacked on a driveway. There is no mention of any kind of covering over the firewood, what kind of firewood it is (kind of tree) and no record of it ever being covered or sheltered from the weather.

even green wood stacked for 2 months should have dryed out some, unless it was frozen the whole time or had been exposed to the elements for the whole time.