Economics of Harvesting 4" DBH trees.

[jayfed]

Within the northern hardwood types I perform contract work in, I am now required to mark down to a 4" DBH size for mechanical crews having processors or delimbers.  The stands have tree DBH distrubutions from saplings to 24"+. The two questions are: Is it really economical from the marking stage through the harvesting, trucking and plant handling stages to harvest these trees?  And is it silivculturally sound?

[jon12345]

I don't think they would change their operating procedure if it wasn't economical.  As for being silviculturally sound it depends on what type of harvest you are doing and what the landowner objectives are.

Whats your criterea for marking?

[Ron Scott]

Do you have a good pulpwood/fuelwood market?

Mark the "worst first" in all diameter classes to a 70-90 sq. ft basal area with small gap openings where needed to remove all "junk" trees as necessary. Release the "crop trees".

[jayfed]

The pulpwood / biofuel market is good to the company's pulpmill.  Single tree selection is used with a residual basal area of 50-90 depending upon DBH distribution and species.  Wood fiber and, to an uneven degree, growing quailty sawlogs are the objectives.   No allowances have been made to adjust the basal area numbers in regards to the presence of the 4" size class. All the basal area tables I have seen are based on 6" size class and above.  I read some time ago that it takes about 80 4"- 2 stick trees to make a cord.  Please keep the comments coming from the various viewpoints such as having mark, processing, and trucking them.

[Pullinchips]

how tall are your 4" dbh trees !!! and how tall is the main bole.   You sure there not just running them over and you paint says that this is ok.  Here in South carolina hw pulp needs to have an 8" dbh 20 ft length minimun to a 6" top, for pine a 4" tree to a 3'' top is ok as long as it is again 20ft long.  Any shorter and it would hve a hard tine staying between the stantions on the truck.  But a few as always are stuck in the middle but i am sure a mill would not want a truck load of 4" hw or pine that does not meet the min size requirements.

-Nate

[jayfed]

2- 8'stick high pulp trees are legit here.  With the overtopping competition, a 4" tree will put it's growth into height.  2 stick trees ( to 3") are common. With the stand's size distribution, a pure load of 4-6" trees will not happen.  Most likely loads having a smaller diameter than typical,  will have parts or all the load put into the bio-fuel processing stream.  The better buncher operators complain of the lack of weight to help push the trees through the crowns.  Other operators which cut a few unmarked stands on one district will not touch them unless it's an operational tree needed to be cut to get to the harvest tree.  The mill is from 1-2 hours away from most of the jobs.  I have not talk to any truckers.  The trees are not being left in the woods or landing either.  But, does any one really think it's economical?  For most operations as long as there is 'cash flow', the business is doing OK and blames for costs/losses will be put on the fuel / equipment / insurance aspect of the business.

[Pullinchips]

Like you said i beleive that the weight would be a major problem there the wood is all young an realitively light in comparison to the same volume of say a 15'' dbh tree so the more smaller stems they have the less dense the wood is per load and your truck weight will go down regarless if stems are removed whole or chipped.  This would mean less money per load on a weight basis so yes i beleive that profits would suffer is that logger were to carry larger older stems in the same truck load.  Maybe the logger has not really done his math?  You would think though with a 4 hour turn around with out the unloading time that they would want to maximixe the weight of each load within legal limits to get the most profit out of each trip. 

On the other hand if each load comes in at the leagal limit here (25 tons) and the wood is safely inside the stantions and not in danger of falling off, it does not matter 25tons of older pulp vs. 25 tons of young pulp weighs the same at the scale house and there fore should yield the same profit margin.  That is if you don't account for the extra harvest time of your cutter driving all over creation to make one drag for the tractor operator.  This harvest time should go up in the small dia. stuff's case.  But, the price of wood fluccuates if the price for biomass of hw pulp is up it still may be profitable even if it takes longer to harvest.

-Nate

[jayfed]

Our Michigan-spec trucks can carry about 45 tons on 11 axles with the legal GVW being about 164,000 #. In the past trucks use to carry a bit more and thus their stakes were made a bit taller. Now with a stricter enforcement of the weight limit, there is some room available on top for more of those 4" 'stickers' to be jammed onboard.  But still one wonders about the profit.  Loading those rigs with those small sticks is not enjoyable as I experienced in my woodyard work with 6" pulp of the past and just roughly loading the tote behind my Case or Prentice loaders.  In winter it was even worse with the cold hydraulics to deal with.  It just seems more time ($) money consuming having to deal with small sticks. Concerning the buncher operator, he is already travelling through the woods and I do refrain from marking a distant 'chase' tree in the pole class. But what of the cost to hande that 4" tree from the stop, rotation, reach, snip and carrying it to the next tree?  I get the feeling the company either wants to just grab more fiber or, with the same goal in a sense, to maintain the same per acre tonnage output as the previous cut when the previous undesirable trees were harvested. There are only so many undesirable trees in a stand and most should have been removed after the second entry into the stand.  In general, each succeeding cut in a hardwood tree drives the $ return onto fewer and fewer trees. 

[SwampDonkey]

As long as your average harvest tree diameter is 7 inches, you'll be ok. If they expect to stick you into some stands with 4 inch dbh and not much bigger be prepared to pack it in. I seen forest companies expect guys to make a profit in average stands of 5 inches, taken down to a 2.5 inch top. It just ain't working in this neck of the woods. It would be great if you could pick up a good run of aspen in through that young maple, then it might work. As far as tree marking though, your production is going to be halfed I would think. Sorry I don't have any concrete numbers, but I have done some marking in stands of hardwood averaging 8-10 inches and I know it takes a good hr to mark an acre. But I used to mark the leave trees with tape and ask them to remove competing trees to release the crown of the crop tree on at least 3 sides. That way, there was not as much marking. My target crop tree density was 50-70 /acre, but that did not mean you cut everything else, as you needed to retain buffer trees to maintain integrity of the stand. Basal area post harvest was 16-20 m^2/ha. We always searched out stands with a minimum of 24 m^2/ha. Areas of beech were simply harvested to promote yellow birch and maple, yes the basal area was low of course in those patches. I've also, gone the other way and marked only the harvest trees and trails and I know it is time consuming.

[Ron Wenrich]

Sometimes it isn't whether the tree is economical to harvest, but is it economical to take forward.  That's the balance the forester must make.

Many times, people think that a 4" tree is a good tree to take forward.  But, in reality, that tree may just as old as a 24" tree.  I showed one4" tree to a landowner and I asked if he minded me boring it.  It was over 40 years old.  That tree should have been at least 12" with a top that was competing in the overstory.  Instead, it was a surpessed tree that would not respond well if released. 

From a basal area standpoint, it would take a lot of 4" trees to make a dent in the BA.  So, basically they are a gimme.  But, it doesn't sound like its even breakeven for you.

Silviculturally, they should be removed in a shelterwood cutting.  If it is an uneven-aged cutting, then only a certain amount of 4" trees should be left behind.  Otherwise you get bumps in your distribution curve.  Not a killer, but not the optimum.

If I was bidding on a job with 4" trees, I would figure up the expected cost for harvesting those trees.  It would probably be a negative figure.  I would factor that into the bid.  The better trees pay for the silvicultural work of removing non-profitable trees that are better not left as growing stock.  Treat them as culls.

[jayfed]

I should have clarified my contract position better.  The company gives me an annual contract $ amount each year at a good  hourly rate.  The bottom line appears only in keeping the cost per acre at or below the range of $18 - 21 per acre which is actually based on the 6" minimum. When marking  6" minmum stands, my cost/acre averaged over the year at about $11 in a pole / sawlog stand. Marking down to 4" has raised the cost / acre to about $14-15.  Still below their range which also helps me to get year round work. For the more typical markers who were already in the $18-21 range, I suspect the contractors cost is now $21-24 / acre and they are having to take the loss so as to keep some work coming their way. So, the  company is actually likely having the cost hidden at this stage.   And this got me to thinking the true cost of the 4" tree cost is not really being accounted for at each stage of the process.  I do not think it is, but no body really seems to know better. The company might actually be losing money at each stage, but all they see is 'more fiber' coming out of the woods.  I do agree that  some of the 4" are likely very supressed, but back in the 6" days, the 4-inchers would probably make it to the bottom end of the 6" class in 12-15 years.  Now those trees will not be there for the next cutting cycle, thus pushing for a return on the fewer remaining trees.  Silviculturally, at what pont are we taking too much material out of the woods? 5", 4" , 3" or even 2"?  Shouldn't some material be left simply to maintain a biologically healthy forest?

Jay F.

[Gary_C]

From a harvesting standpoint, there is not one, easy answer.

To a harvester, a four inch DBH tree is like a piece of candy to a kid. However, if you have to move for that one tree and there is no other tree nearby that you can pile the sticks with, the few sticks will probably get lost and forgotten. Also if you can pile the sticks with another tree, you better stack them neatly because any crossed or uneven ends can cost a lot of time for the forwarder. Problem is the sticks are so light that many times they bounce on the pile and turn crossways and then you have a mess. They can be just as troublesome to load on a truck.

Most pulp mills specify 4 inch minimum dia inside the bark. However they usually will not complain if there are only a few small sticks. I have seen some whole loads of pine down to two inches, but I think they had to get prior approval.

Overall, I do not mind 4 inch trees as long as there are not too many, and I will even process some two and three inch trees that are in the trail so that they will not spring back up in the trail.

I did cut one job that the red maple pulp was all four inches and under and a lot of it was double stems which can be trouble. There was about half of what he estimated  actually there and I will not even look at another of his jobs again, for that and a lot of other reasons. It was a scaled sale, but he even went out and counted every isolated or too small tree that did not get cut and tried to charge for them also. Typical state job!!!

I do not think that anything under 4 inches, should even be counted on the estimate especially when the specs call for a 4 inch min top. If its a scaled sale you pay for what you cut anyway.

[SwampDonkey]

$15/acre is my rate as well, trails are extra (0.10/meter). If it's a big job, it's $250/day across the board. Don't get much of that work on private because most owners sell stumpage to a logging contractor, where in most cases there is no plan and they don't want anyone's advise. 

[Greg]

$15/acre is my rate as well, trails are extra (0.10/meter). If it's a big job, it's $250/day across the board. Don't get much of that work on private because most owners sell stumpage to a logging contractor, where in most cases there is no plan and they don't want anyone's advise. 

What is the $15/acre, $250/day rate for again?

Sorry I missed something...

Thanks,
Greg

[SwampDonkey]

For harvest layout, tree marking and trails. You can layout 12-16 acres per day  in my experience. If it's just spaced buncher trails it's 25-30 acres/day depending on spacing.

[SwampDonkey]

Gary, one landowner was telling me he was on a tour of an industry sized forestry operation. It was semi-commercial thinning in 60 year old black spruce plantations. After the work was done, they made the harvestor crew take that big machinery back in to grab any softwood that broke off in the wind. I can't see how that would pay. Some of these industrial sized outfits have the operators by the jewels because they finance through the company and if they want to continue working, alot of times they have to work for nothing for such cleanup/touchup work. It's almost as if they don't want any natural processes to occur on thier woodlands, no matter what the cost. They talk about sustainability of the forests, I'm thinking sustainability of a profitable business. 

[Tillaway]

Just a general comment... man you guys are inexpensive.  It must flat ground and no brush on the marking.  SD come on out and work anytime, I would hire you at $250 a day no questions asked.  I just need to line up some work.

I think my rates would have to be $320 or more plus expenses and mileage.

Overall we do allot of thinnings and find we get a much better job done by not marking the trees.  Our contract specs define what are acceptable leave trees and a basal area retention that has to be met.  We just train the cutters and do compliance checks often.  Once they have learned all you need to do is give them the "count" for leave trees and let them take it from there.  It makes them much happier and we get a better job.

[wiam]

I have an uncle that knows his stuff in the woods.  He was cutting on a job and the other cutter on the same job was mad when he saw uncles section was not marked as his was.  The forester said but Duane knows what I want cut and you do not.

Will

[Gary_C]

SD, just about all of my work is in DNR (state) jobs that are hardwood marked thinnings. I usually have to go back over areas many times to get all the marked trees. The job I am about half way through now was originally marked about 8 years ago and then remarked 2 years ago by some summer students that put dots of paint on two sides of the tree. Then the summer before last, straight line winds took down large Red Oaks, Basswood, and Maple in scattered spots through the stand. By the time I get all the blowdown and find all the poorly marked trees, I have just about run down all the small trees.

If I had high priced, new machinery and had to have high production to make the payments, I could not survive. Even though the price was reduced because of the storm, that blowdown is tough to deal with and too much is worthless Basswood pulp.

Profitability may be an elusive word for some time now. All the local mills have their yards full and are slashing prices and putting everyone on quotas. All the mills stopped taking Aspen because their yards were full and the high production crews were piling it along main roads in March. No body knows when they will start taking Aspen again but it probably will not be this month.

Hopefully it may bring the stumpage prices back to reality. There were some that paid over $160 per cord for Aspen stumpage while the mills were paying most of the loggers just over half that for delivered wood. Don't ask me how that worked for them because I haven't a clue. I even saw one of those bigger logging crews out bid a company buyer for International Paper.   

Some people believe the only loggers that will be left are the contract cutters for the mills. They do seem to protect them to keep their yards full and they use the small operators to lower their average fiber prices.

[SwampDonkey]

Tillaway, that's my local rate. If I gotta go beyond 50 miles it's an extra $0.75/mile and if it's a job I have to spend overnight at, it's $350/day. I'm not one of these types that thinks they have to travel each way 3 hours to a job site, I stay overnight, hopefully at a warm Hotel. Never fear, I'm no timber pimp's prostitute.

[SteveB]

4" are prety small to be marking, although in an ideal silvicultural world it makes sense to remove undesirables of any size.  Operationally, it would be much better to get them with brush saws before they get to this size.  I would imagine cutting these minni sticks would totally kill single grip productivity, not quite so bad for bnchers, but still not ideal.  When I did markign we went to about about 6-8".  About 20-22$/acre for hardwood selection or w pine shelterwood is about the norm in Ontario.  That includes boundaries but no trial layout (not sure why gov. go to the trouble of insisting marking the trees but not trails?).  About 5ha/12acres is reasonable for experinced markers under these conditions.  Paint cost is not included in price, transport, other equipment is.  The most I ever got extra for overnight was about 2$/acre for staying overnight, but you could usually increase your production substantially if staying right there.

[jayfed]

The company I work for pays me an good hourly rate and assigns me annual budget which they have willingly bumped up as needed towards the year end.  They pay travel one way on the same hourly basis + time getting back to the nearest county road after the day is done.  If I stay overnight, I convert the room cost into 'work hours'.  I also pro-rate the travel and motel hours based on 'Marking' or 'Other' so that a more accurate picture of the marking cost per acre is obtained.  From this I obtain my average cost of marking 4" material within a sawlog / pole stand (with opposing marks and stump marks for 10" DBH+) of ~$15 / acre.  A more 'poley' stand would definitingly be nearer to the $18-20 range.   If it is a pure pole stand, which is rare in our area, then the leave trees are marked . Even though one marks less leave trees, it takes almost as long as the log / pole stands because of the decision time needed to chose those crop trees.  Our jobbers actually prefer having the trees marked.  The company will, however, let the better jobbers go on their own in poor stands where a 'bad' choice would not really be notice this time through the woods.
Jay F.

[SwampDonkey]

Looks like we are all in the same ball park to me. If anyone wants to try to do it for less, they won't be your competition for long. I know some of these industrial giants like to play the numbers game and I'de rather walk away than work for nothing.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'd say that rate would probably stick around here, but no one is marking pulp.  They've been marking sawtimber only in most stands.  Norm is 200-250 trees/day or about 40-50 Mbf.  I used to have a rate of $8/Mbf for sale setup.

[SwampDonkey]

We have such a large volume of hardwood pulp, that if we just marked hardwood sawlogs, your better off clearcutting it. Otherwise you are left with junk and junk can only grow into bigger junk. Our sawlogs in softwood have a higher percentage of the volume.

[jayfed]

It appears that from a marking and harvesting perspective within a pole / sawlog stand, a few 4" trees near other larger trees is a doable concern. Whether it's really economical is highly debatable.  A pure pole stand seems to be a more optimal area of operation if the leave trees are marked and the harvesting equipment is geared towards smaller diameter stock. Trucking's main concern is probably the handling if there is a noticeable amount of small material which rarely handles well unless there is a small diameter spread among the sticks.  At the mill end there is likely little concern if there is a biofuel outlet.  If they did not have this biofuel option, I wonder if they would even want the 4-3"material. Until last year, 4" trees were considered operational trees and were not marked.   I spoke to one of the company foresters this week and even he thinks that the multiple-stage economics of the 4" wood is dubious.  To me, the 4 " limit makes the marking almost drudgery.  When I worked with Mead in the days of cable skidders and marking down to 8 "( if that tree was close to another tree), I could mark 40 acres a day. Along came the personally 'dreaded' 6" marking because of mechanization.  My marking acreage went down to 20-25 acres a day.  Eventually, I could see some benefits to the 6" marking, yet I thought the woods were taking more of a beating with the larger and heavier skidders damaging more roots. Now I am lucky to get to 17-20 acres a day on flat ground.  Thanks for the comments, folks!   Jay F.

[jrdwyer]

I'm in the land of chansaws and grapple/cable skidders. Timber harvesters are just starting to make an impact with several of the timber buyers and loggers.

With a selective harvest, I obviously mark the pulpwood that will be  destroyed by the larger sawtimber when it is felled. My current limit is 6" DBH due to the fact that those with the timber harvesters can cut them profitabliy. If you go below 6",  the merchantable height is generally too short. Even with clearcuts, 6" is generally the economic limit in this area for hardwoods. Not a true clearcut when all is done, but it is reasonably close in most stands.

Our pulpwood markets are pretty weak with only two papermills and one takes chips only.

I have had light selectively marked timber sales with valuable sawtimber where the high bidder doesn't even mess with the pulpwood that is marked.  I attempt to get some of the poor quality pulpwood sized trees, culls, grapevines, etc. through TSI.

Prior to timber harvesters, I use to limit marking to 8" DBH and even then the smaller stuff was often left in the woods.

[SteveB]

I think it's reeally good to make sure the small stuff that should be cut is cut.  man of the degraded stands we harvest today are the result of poor forestry practices including high grading and diameter limit cutting.  If it's diseased or old and suppressed it should go, even if it's small.  Mind you, people can't be expected to do silviculture work for free while harvesting.  If it's too small to be economical to pull out and use (basically won't be scaled), there should be some type of payment program (ie. per/ha improvement fee) paid to loggers to fall small crappy stuff.  If I was writing up a contract for my woodlot to be harvested, I would make sure that it is very clear that even the small unacceptable stuff is cut.  It has to be set up so that payment isn't made unless everything that you wanted cut gets cut.  On crown land in any place i've worked in eastern canada you are required to cut eveything that's marked... or else.  I know that the large heavy handed companies working on crown land arent' too popular sometimes, but the fact that you can tell a contractor the he's either getting on the float to go back and clean up the second half of the job he didn't properly finish, or he's going home (and not to another crown job) is a good thing.  I know the rates aren't great, but you can't sign up to do a job, do half of it, and then say that the rate's too crappy to do the rest properly.  Most in the game should be experinced enough and plann ahead to look over the land ahead of time (not when the machine's sitting idle at 100$/hr) and make the decision wether they can economically do the job properly (as always, good planning, including that done on the part of the logging contractor is key).  Of course, the comany managing the forest should also be plannign ahead enough to give the loggers a good idea of where they're going next so that everyone can plan ahead appropriately (too many times this is where everyone looses money).  Weather is hard to plan around, but you can at least always depend on weather being unpredicatble, ane the one thing you can count on is plan B (and C-Z) being used form time to time.