My miter saw bought the farm

[woodsteach]

I have been cutting cants for a pallet guy and he will also buy pallet boards from me which I have been getting from parts of the log that would have gone to waste. (I have a Brand X)

The problem is my miter saw.  With all of the starting and stoping of cutting the boards to finished length shot craps.  It is an older 90's Delta something.  I was wondering what you think I will most likely get the saw fixed sometime but it will just happen again. 

So should I get a radial arm saw, or fix the miter saw and somehow clamp the on switch on and let the miter saw run all the time. 

I have a guy who wants to sell me an old radial arm saw for less than $100.

Tell me what you think

Paul

[Tom]

Woodsteach,
You're asking for an opinion and I've got one...  or two..   

I think RAS's are dangerous.  They are especially dangerous in a repetitive operation where you will become complacent.  The blade turns such that it will climb out of the cut.  When it does, here it comes, 90 to nothing toward you.  People have lost fingers, hands and arms to those things, just in casual sawing.  If you really put it to work, I think you are tinkering with the development of a bad injury.

The miter saw is the safer way to go, but don't wire around the safety device which turns it on and off.

My suggestion would be for you to buy or build a saw for cutting to length.  End trimmers are commonly used in the production line in front of planers.  An example that you might make would be a skill saw turned upside down at a given place on a table.  Turn another upside down at a given place on the other end of the table.  You can push boards through or build a live chain that will carry them through.  If you line one end up with the place where you want the cut, the other saw will automatically cut the other end off at the proper length.

you might go through the ends that drop off, every hour or so and collect pieces that are long enough for another board.  You might save the problems by having the boards almost the proper length to begin with.

The skill saws can run all of the time.  They have blade guards that will  help to keep fingers out of the blades and trash from being thrown.  The sawdust is usually channeled to a specific area on the saw where you could even hook up a shop vac and get rid of sawdust.  There would be less material handling and you could pass the cut board all the way through so that it stacked on the backside of the table.

If it works good enough, you can buy tools like this from commercial manufacturers.  Then you would have a dependable, labor saving and relatively safe device.

[Kevin_H.]

woodsteach,
We are running 3 chop saws in our shop, 2 12" dewalts and a 10" delta, What we have found is that the saw will last a lot longer without the constant start and stop, we use a spring clamp to hold the trigger in the on pos. ( Sorry tom )  The saws all have blade guards on them that cover the blade.

The nice thing about the dewalts is that for a set price you can get them rebuilt, i think it is something like 150.00 and that will fix any thing and everything wrong with it.

Since we run the saws for long periods of time we keep alot of extra brushes on hand, they are pretty easy to change.

I think if we need another one we might try the rigid brand from home depot as they have a lifetime

I think right now on the home depot website you can get a reconditioned 10 ridgid for something like $129.00

I tried to get the link to the chop saw to work but I couldn't ...

[Dan_Shade]

my dad is minus a finger thanks to a radial arm saw.  I had one climb out of a cut like tom said one time.  I have one, but it scares the crap out of me.  almost as much as a jointer does....

I'd stick with the chop saws, you can get them cheap enough.  was it the switch, or the motor?

[slowzuki]

I will pay closer attention when using the radial arm saw I think, I always had felt safer than a table saw and that is probably what leads to accidents.

[beenthere]

I've had a radial arm saw and table saw for 40 years, and now also have a 12" compound sliding miter, and a 10" compound miter. Each have their specific uses and limitations. Also, each demands respect and constant alertness or something bad could happen.
I will say, I am more confident using the RAS than any of the other 3.  I've been using the RAS for several days in a row now, and suspect I will for another two weeks. The 10" miter just sits there. Doesn't cut wide enough.
I do wish the 10" RAS Rockwell Delta had an electric brake rather than a manual one though. It will coast for a long, long time.
I've had more violent kicks from pinching out of my electric hand saw than I ever have from my RAS. If I let it eat wood too fast, it just binds and locks up. Do have to watch flying pieces and good fence support for the wood to rest against.
All tools are dangerous and can hurt. I'd not like to try to guess which are less dangerous than others.   

[Don P]

I've worked around both in production, and had friends mangled by both. The RAS bounced on a fast release, caught a board being fed across it and ran over a thumb. The radial arm is statistically the most dangerous tool in the shop I've been told.
The spring broke on a chop saw and the saw came down across the back of a hand.
Needless to say I try to religiously stay out of the path no matter what. Rushing almost never speeds you up.

I've replaced the switch on my DeWalt miter saw, its no problem.

At the shop we switched to Whirlwind Chop saws with rollertable infeed and outfeed and adjustable backstops. Check the used dealers, you'll never look back  .

[HORSELOGGER]

I think I have inflicted more pain upon myself , overall, with hammers, screwdrivers and knuckle busters from wrenches slipping than anything from a saw (so far) Oh... And I did take a 1x8 about 2 inches south of my special spot when my old wedge bed planer rejected it ( always stand at an angle now )

On the chop saw thing, I am looking for something right now to end trim flooring and last week looked at a RAS called the "Original" made by the Original saw co. It has a safety stop on it so that if you are cutting a max of 6 inches, the stop could be set at 7 inches and it would not be able to run out of the cut and eat you. Also had a auto return, but it was kinda heavy to pull and I would not want to yank on it all day trimming flooring. I have 2 tired dewalts... a 10 and a 12. The twelve sits next to the SLR and I use it to chop out the real nasty stuff as I rip out blanks for the moulder. The fence has never been square. On the dewalts, the fence is a single aluminium piece with a half moon behind the blade connecting the right and left sides. It is flexes in at the center and does not give a dead square cut. The 10 inch is dead square, but can only cut a max 5 inch floor and is tired. I have a 7 inch floor to run next month, so am looking for a new saw. The sliders are nice but I only need a 90 degree cut, no beveling or compounding, so hate to spend the $ for stuff I wont use. Anybody have one of the new Bosch sliders?

Don I like the pop n chops too but space is limited After I run a floor, I set up the table of the SLR as a chop station by clamping the chop saw to it. Remember that gravel pad next to the shop we built? Maybe this year I can slow down and build the addition

[wiam]

I was always taught to push a ras when crosscutting.

Will

[HORSELOGGER]

These look funky:


http://www.norsaw.co.uk/index.htm

[DanG]

Wiam, I was thinking the same thing.

Horselogger, I have one of those cheapo 12" sliders on the way from Harbor Freight...should be here any day.  I'll file a report when I get it.

[beenthere]

Wiam
Don't know how one would start the saw (ahead of the board), hang on to the saw at the same time, and also hold the board down too. Seems one would need to have three hands or use a clamp every time to clamp the board down.

How do you do that?

My compound sliding miter with the switch in the handle will allow me to cut that way, and that is how I cut with it. I like it too. Just not as deep (wide of board) a cut as the RAS.

[Larry]

Wiam,
I converted to the push stroke some 20 years ago.  Guy that taught me was from across the big pond and said they thought Americans were crazy using the RAS with a pulling stroke.

The self feeding of a RAS can be tamed somewhat by using a blade with a very small or even negative hook angle.

[slowzuki]

Whoa wait a second, people cut towards themselves with the radial arm? I don't even know if our little craftsman can do that with how we have the backstop set on the table. Hmm, I'll have to look

[isassi]

Seems like we always beat up on the radial arm saws and how dangerous they are. I agree with most, they are VERY dangerous, as is ANY power tool with a blade that can in anyway contact an operator. I do not know or remember where I read it, but it seems like a table saw won hands down for the number of injuries, but that may be directly related how many table saws are out there vs. radial arm saws which are not that common in home shops. I own two of them, and they have their purpose, and are no more or less dangerous then standing 3 feet away from a 52" saw blade running a circle mill. It is about the operator, not the tool. Kinda like gun injuries. 

To the original thought, I agree with Tom, that a trim saw would be the way to work repetitive cutting to length, and it would be very easy to fabricate such a saw. If I milled for a living, I would build one rather then buy one, all you would need to do is look at how they are constructed to get an idea.

[beenthere]

Makes me wonder if we are talking about the same thing here, when we say RAS (radial arm saw).

[Tom]

Yep!  That's a Radial Arm Saw to me.

[Dan_Shade]

how do you "push" with one of those?

pull the saw out, set the board in place, then push back?

[beenthere]

Dan, I'd be interested in learning that trick too 

[wiam]

how do you "push" with one of those?

pull the saw out, set the board in place, then push back?

Yes Dan you got it.  It is that simple.  When done this way it can't climb.

Beenthere,  My ras has a fence like yours.  The board will sit on the table if I do not hold it down.  Then I just start the saw and usually I push it through with the same hand I turned it on with.  The fence will hold the board.  MY OTHER HAND IS NOT NEAR THE BOARD.


Will

[beenthere]

Wiam
Sorry if this appears that I am trying to argue with you, but hope if I am wrong that I learn something new.

In this picture, I think I am showing the board behind the saw, such as you have described is the way that you do the sawing on your RAS. As I see it, that board will NOT sit on the table without some serious effort to hold it down when those teeth in that blade engage the upper right corner. It will toss that board up like there is no tomorrow, and it will go flying. And that fence will not hold that board. Now, this is just as I see it. Am I wrong? 
I only persist with this as it seems a very dangerous method of using the RAS is being proposed.




As I normally use my RAS with the board against the fence, and the blade started behind the fence, the board is held by the fence and the teeth begin their cut in a downward motion, pushing the board against the table as well as against the fence. If drawn to fast forward, the blade can climb into the cut and sometimes has to be held back so it is not too agressive.
Here is the normal, and I believe safe position, for starting the saw and the cut across a board. Am I wrong?

[wiam]

Have you ever pushed a ras?  I ahve never had a board lift by pushing.

Will

[beenthere]

How about a picture of you doing it? 

[woodsteach]

Thanks for the great replies.  I just can't imagine pushing a RAS.  I have been teaching high school woodshop for the last 10 years and have always had a RAS and teache the kids " keep your hands 6" away from the blade and you'll have all 10 fingers at the end of the day."

I have had a hard time adjusting to the slidding miter saw with the cut on the return stroke is that what you are talking about with the pushing of a RAS? 

The switch on my Delta is ok it is the "drive belt" connecting the motor to the arbor.  the saw model is 35-080 i think so I'll most likely for now find a belt and replace it. 

I like the different views on RAS safety. 

Paul

[LeeB]

Wiams method is the same method recomended for an SCM, which to me is about the same as an RAS. They to can also climb cut. LeeB

[wiam]

If you have a ras you do not need a pic.  I do it all the time so I do not need a pic.

Will

[slowzuki]

Ok our radial arm saw doesn't look quite like those.  I haven't used it for a long time so I should take a closer look.  Shhh! The last amount of use it has was cutting steel in the garage so it wasn't really being used correctly, but I for sure was pushing the saw as it would climb too bad pulling.

Hmm, maybe the saw can go past and cut pulling, I was using a drill vise bolted to the table at the time.  I'll have to check.

[beenthere]

Yesterday I was cutting some SPF on my radial arm saw, and tried the procedure suggested, just for kicks.

Pulled the saw head out past the fence (seems 'exposed' out there).

Placed the board to be cut and the pencil mark where it was to be cut in position with respect to the stopped blade.

Switched the saw on (blade really seems exposed now !! )

Held the board against the fence, and 'pushed' the saw back, having to adjust slightly so the cut was just at the edge of the mark.
(for sure don't understand how one could just leave the board lay there without holding it, as an accurate cut couldn't be made)

Sawdust went everywhere as there wasn't a direct path back to the vacuum pick-up.

Board didn't rise up, and the saw pushed back with no problem. It was a successful cut.

Would I do it that way again.........Nope.  I like the running saw to be behind the fence when not cutting wood. Seems and feels much safer that way.

I will readily admit that a thick piece making a heavy cut will require a firm hand holding the power head from advancing as the blade works into the cut. If too much, it locks up in the cut.
Y'all are welcome to do as you like best. I will too. 

[isassi]

I can see it working both ways, but why? It wasn't designed that way. But I am with you beenthere, whatever floats your boat. When a milling machine cuts like a RAS is supposed to cut, it is called "climb milling" or trying to pull the cutter up and on or through the cut. The RAS depends on the operator controlling the speed of the cut and most RAS's will stall out if you let it go. A really powerful old Dewalt or similar would probably come right after you, hence the extream danger of RAS's in general.

The number one failing I have seen in RAS users is cutting long stock and failing to support the stock, cutting through and then having the board under the RAS head up against the saw, and trying to get a hand in there to hold it down and the saw "bites" and jumps back forward again. I have personally never seen anyone hurt doing this, but many close calls. I have seen guys have lots of close calls with table saws also, using a miter gauge with a rip fence and getting a board in the face...usually only takes once, but there will be some slow learners and maybe serious injuries....like I said earlier, power tools all have a degree of DANGER!

[Don P]

The blades Larry was talking about make a big difference in climbing, or not climbing on a radial arm. I did try Wiam's way with my saw, no problem, I would say more controlled than "normal".

This is the innards of a simple gravity return chopsaw.I've oversimplified it but the thing was shop built and quite simple. I added a bungee return. The fence was toward the operator and a channel shaped guard covered the blade path, leaving a slot to feed the wood through.

[woodbeard]

So, with the "push" method, what happens if your board is as wide as the saw will cut? Do you lower the spinning blade into it, and then push?
The only reason I would want a radial arm saw again is so I can cut real wide stuff. I had a 12" Dewalt RAS, about 50 or 60 years old. Great machine, but a bit of a pain to set up for compound cuts. I found most of the time, I was not pulling the saw, but holding it back at a reasonable feed rate. When it did get out of control, it would usually just stall the motor. Usually, this would be in a wider board, and due to the cut closing up from tension in the board.
Anyhow, I sold the RAS, and bought a sliding miter saw, and am much happier with it. Wide cuts still close up and want to pinch the blade, but now I can lift it out of the cut, and start from another point. I don't have the same width capacity, but a sliding jig on the tablesaw does fine for my wider cuts, which are usually in shorter stock, anyway. The only thing I miss the RAS for is on real wide, real long planks. But that's what I have a chainsaw for, eh?

[DanG]

Which slider did ya buy, George?  Would you buy the same one again?

[woodbeard]

I got the Dewalt DW708. I would absolutely get it again, but I think they phased it out. The new model ( DW718 ) looks even better, and can crosscut up to 16". If you can still find the old one, you can probably get a real good deal on one.
I had a job recently where I had to cut 3x4 valley rafter ends for a 16/12 pitch roof. I think it was like 53deg. miter at a 45 deg. bevel. It was nice to not have to do that with a skilsaw.

[beenthere]

DanG
Here is a thread OneWithWood started a while back on the subject.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=17049.0

I also have the DeWalt 708 and have been real pleased with it's performance. I especially like the handle being cross-wise, and not vertical. Seems easier to grab that way to me.

[DanG]

My el-cheapo slider got here today.  I gotta say, for the money I spent, I'm impressed!  I set it for a 45° cut, then checked it against my speed square and it was right on.  All the adjustments are easy to use, and the slide works smoothly.  The guard has a rack and pinion mechanism that moves it out of the way, then covers the blade completely when you raise it back up.  In short, I checked it out every way I could think of and it passed all the tests.  The only thing left to worry about is durability.  If it survive's this house project, I'll consider it a well-spent $200.

[steveo_1]

I think Don P has the best answer here.
(At the shop we switched to Whirlwind Chop saws with rollertable infeed and outfeed and adjustable backstops. Check the used dealers, you'll never look back.)
This saw will beat the production of any RAS and soon pay for itself,a much safer solution too.I used them at the shop i worked at and never saw or heard of any accidents with it from guys who used this saw everyday,many hours at a time.