Wood for boat building

[quirkus]

I am building a wooden boat. It is a small open craft, of traditional type, requiring planks and frames. What I know about it comes from books, and they specify certain woods. I am looking for wood for this project, and I anticipate building more than one boat. For planks, the top choices are eastern and northern white pine, western red cedar, Maine white cedar, and Eastern white cedar. For steam-bent frames, white oak seems to be the only choice, and it needs to be relatively green (unseasoned). Seasoned white oak is the traditional material for sawn frames. Finally, for all woods, there is a preference for wood cut from butt logs. Any input will help, because at this time, I have more questions than answers.

[sprucebunny]

Welcome to the Forum, quirkus

Where are you located ?

Are you looking for a supplier of these woods

[SwampDonkey]

Local common names of white cedar can be confusing. Maine white cedar, northern white cedar and eastern white cedar are the same species Thuja occidentalis. Now, they could also be referring to atlantic white cedar Chamaecyparis thyoides, which is a false cypress as the latin translation suggests. Suprisingly, alot a Maine canoe and boat builders get their cedar from New Brunswick. White oak should be a good wood for your structure. I'm wondering why they don't suggest white ash for steam bending, it's fairly decay resistant. My grandfather used it for bridge decking.

[quirkus]

SPRUCEBUNNY -- Yes, I need to locate and acquire these woods. I am in South Texas. Availability and prices will determine which varieties I use. I think the right lumber yards will have what I want, but after looking in these forums, I am very distracted by other possibilities. Someone has 80 ft. spruce logs in Michigan. I want one!
SWAMPDONKEY -- If you know of builders who use cedar for planking, can you pin down certain varieties? White ash is used for steaming, but the jury seems to be out concerning durability in salt water. What can you tell me about "white pine"?
   

[sprucebunny]

I have some experience building boats in New England. White pine is not favored because it's not very strong. It might be adaquate for smaller boats but I'd recomend a cedar or Southern yellow pine for planks. You are right on target with the green white oak for steam bent frames.

[SwampDonkey]

All the canoes here during the hay day of salmon angling were made with eastern white cedar and steam bent ash with canvas backs and painted green. Miller, Lennon and Chestnut were the big names in my area of New Brunswick. Most the old timers I remember on the rivers here had Miller and Chestnut.

Here's an Historic Canoe Catelog

http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/

[Don P]

I've saved that page 

I worked in a whitewater canoe rental shop in my late teens, we got to experiment with a bunch of rebuilds and wrecks. Ash was the only wood that would take the impacts and bending in that kind of boat. Our woodwork rarely lasted long enough that durability in the elements was a factor though  .

[TexasTimbers]

Here is a link that has some good tips.
I have seen a wide variety of species mentioned for various parts of the boat. I've seen black locust is mentioned alot for the making of the ribs for example.
Here's another good thread.
Tons of info on this subject available. I had a buddy in the USCG, from Maine, who was alaways drawing designs on anything available. For over two years he would sketch. Even in the helicopter on a SAR mission he'd be drawing sometimes even then.
I don't know that he ever settled on a design. He never did start the thing.
I hope you have settled on a design!

[SwampDonkey]

I've counted as many as 200 canoes and other boats on the Saint John River near Island View and Sugar Island. There was a sign posted by the anglers along the shore of Sugar Island that basically said to let everyone have a pass down through the pools. This ment if you were in a canoe you pulled anchor every so often and drifted a few feet down. When you eventually got down through the pool you motored to the back of the line. This was the same for shore fisherman. If you thought you had the right to 'hog' the pool and not budge, you better be prepared to go for a swim. The pools weren't little pockets they were several acres, but there was alot of fellas wanting to have their turn. And you didn't motor by everyone at full throttle either, if you wished to participate. We had some good times down there and I was at the age where I could go every summer and fish with grandfather and all the local old timers in Fredericton. Some guys who worked would show up there at 4 am before work and catch a fish or two. That store bought atlantic salmon is something the old timers would never eat and they always new a fish hatchery fish when it was caught, sometimes it was only marked by a cut fin next to the tale. They always through them back, some of the younger generation kept them. But, they didn't taste as good as the wild ones fresh from the sea with sea-lice on their backs. You knew he was fresh from the sea with the lice 'cause they soon die in fresh water. About 1984 was the height of the fishing down there, even then it was becoming a challenge to hook a salmon. All the hydro dams over the years interupted the spawning. When they installed Tobique Narrows dam, thousands died the first season and that was the largest run on the Saint John river system. They always trucked them over the dams, but how does a fish take going through turbines. Only the Tobique had a fishway. There were another 2 dams to go through after that when return to sea.

[OLD_ JD]

what about tamaracks. .is that can be use in boat building ..I always ask my self about using that to built a boat

[sprucebunny]

Tamarack "knees" were/are used in some traditional boatbuilding. They are cut at the butt of the tree and are like an angle bracket; used to support a roof or ledge. I don't know if tamarack planking is used much

[SwampDonkey]

If you don't get big tamarack timbers, it'll probably be quite twisty stuff. DOn't use stuff of old fields, it's like cork screws for some reason.

[UNCLEBUCK]

You are correct quirkus in all your thinking !  Cut yourself alot of extra white oak ribs for the bending .  If you pick through the cedar at a local lumberyard you can find yourself enough quarter sawn boards for your planking . Lumber 16 foot and longer seems to be less limb lumber and better quality .  In www.woodenboat.com you can have them send you a free copy and in it is many mnay marine lumber suppliers that u.p.s. on a daily basis to your door . Good luck with your boat .

[Ianab]

Finally, for all woods, there is a preference for wood cut from butt logs.

The reason for wanting wood from the butt log is simply that it's usually the nicest straight grain stuff. When you look at a tree in the forest you will find that the first log has shed all it's branches and grown nice straight timber, as you get further up the tree there are more branches and knots, so the timber isn't as good.
It's straight grain timber you want for boat building, you are just likely to get more from the butt log

The best woods depend on your end use and location. White oak is good because it's strong and resists decay (both good things in a boat). Various cedars are good because they are light and resist decay (also good things for a boat). But those particular woods were chosen because they were the best that grew in that area for a particular use. When the Europeans arrived in NZ they had to adapt and make boats out of Pohutakawa and Kauri instead. So a certain part of the question is what woods are available locally, and what are they best for.

The bending question, if wood is kiln dried down to 8% for furniture it will become more brittle and harder to bend. If you can get wood thats only air dried to 12-15% it will bend a lot better.

Cheers

Ian

[UNCLEBUCK]

 All the boats the vikings built were made from sawn white oak frames and very few steam bent and all the planking was white oak as well because well because I dont know why  . Not far from my location is a place called the  hjemkomst center in moorhead minnesota and there is a replica long boat recently built and sailed to norway then hauled home . It is a beautiful site to see .   I know that when I take a soaking green piece of oak like for a steam bent frame ,after it is bent and fastened and set for a few days it has dried out from the steaming . A white oak 1x1-1/2 green as can be takes about 1 hour per inch in the steambox . If anyone wants to search a interesting topic its that hjemkomst center and viking boat , they also have a viking replica church at the same site . I find myself getting lost at that place a few times a year as its hard to imagine sawing white oak boards in 600a.d. but I guess they done did it .

[SwampDonkey]

How many Vikings sailed to Minn?  However they did come to Vineland (Newfoundland) and there are old shelters discovered there at L'Anse aux Meadows. It remains the only authenticated Viking settlement in North America.

http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/nl/meadows/index_e.asp

[quirkus]

Good information. I love this place. Finding the lumber I need and getting it to South Texas is going to be a challenge. I think I can probably buy off the shelf locally if I spend enough time traveling and searching. But let's look at another avenue. Boat planks and sawn boat frames are both crooked. They need to be cut from crooked lumber. My books tell me that flitches are the way to go. They will provide the curved lumber needed. You guys are probably the ones who turn logs into flitches. Do I need to get my flitches straight from the mill? I couldn't use thousands of BF at this stage, but I plan to develop a market for these boats and who knows? Maybe I need to look for a vendor in Texas. I need white oak for frames and white pine and cedar (red, yellow) for planks.     

[Tom]

You would have to, first, determine what your sources determined to be a flitch.  To a sawyer, a flitch is a slice removed from a log that has not been trimmed.  That means that it still  has at least one natural edge and bark.  It may be a board that just hasn't had the edges trimmed and straightened, or it may be one of the first cuts from the outside of the log, also called a "slab".  A slab has a rounded surface since it is the natural shape of the outside of the tree.  Yes, sawyers produce flitches. To purchase flitches today, you would probably have to find a sawmill that was doing custom sawing.

Was your book written in the North East?  That may have a lot to do with their selection of woods. 

You're right in thinking that you might be going on a treasure hunt, but Texas has trees too.  As a matter of fact there has been a lot of boat building in Texas over the years from lumber harvested in Texas and Louisiana.  There are white oaks and other trees being cut there that would probably do you service.  Don't forget the time honored Cypress.  It has been a boat wood for ages.  Not many boat builders I know of use naturally existing curves of wood.  If you decide that you want to go that route, you will probably be better off selecting your trees as they stand on the stump rather than trying to purchase boards with certain curves in them.  This would mean that you will have to do the sawing yourself or develop a very good relationship with a custom sawyer.

[quirkus]

Tom -- Thanks for a new angle. Yes, these books by old-timers are largely a New England product. I really haven't thought about Texas logging too much. Lumber from Texas will certainly be easier to get and less expensive. I assumed white oak would be more of a northern product. East Texas was or is pine logging country. Cypress built many a boat in my home town, a lifetime ago. Cypress soaks up water, swells, and gets heavy, but it was used a lot for planking.  A friend just bought some big pieces from the lumberyard. It may be a good framing material. It was replaced by Philippine mahogany. Besides pine, I can't think of a local variety that would produce planking material.
Curved lumber is desireable for lapstrake boat planks and for sawn frames in the models I am building.
What can you tell me about sawmilling in Texas?
 

[Tom]

I can't tell you a bunch about Sawmilling in Texas, 'cept it's probably the same as the rest of the south.  Pine is the mainstay.  Cypress is treasured.  Cedar is a fine planking wood.

We've got some really knowledgeable Foresters on the forum who live in texas and some active sawmillers as well.

Many of the boats built by boatbuilders in Florida when I was a kid were made from Southern Yellow Pine.  Live Oak was used sometimes for curved parts of big fishing boats and Pilot boats, because of its strength and rot resistance.