basswood seedling ???

[whitepine]

Was  walking with the state forester on a nearby logging cut and we were discussing what I should try planting on  my land ( I am having a bunch cut also this winter) and he suggested basswood. It does grow here and he said it was  gaining in wealth and I like to try all kinds of different trees. I made out my tree orders to two  nurseries ( felt like a kid in a candy store ordered about ten different species) today for next spring  both nurseries said they had  never sold as much and some species sold out already so if you are planning on ordering better get going, anyway neither had basswood I asked one and they said  sometimes it takes years for it to germinate (?) and they had no luck with it. Does anyone know anything about basswood seedlings where could I get them ? Could I clone them? Are they a problem. Thanks Tom from Minnesota  rain on the 2nd of January thats a first for up here, no frost either should be 3 ft by now, loggers are in a panic. It is supposed to be 20 below

[jon12345]

Here's a few quick facts I found, not sure where you might be able to find seedlings though -

Basswood seeds show a pronounced dormancy and generally germinate poorly regardless of seedbed conditions

On cutover land, survival was best when a light overhead canopy

Shading aids the establishment and initial survival of basswood seedlings but heavy shade limits subsequent growth and development

Basswood is one of the hardwoods least susceptible to late spring frosts

Basswood sprouts prolifically, and this vegetative regeneration can be managed for sawtimber


source: http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsiltilam.htm

[Jeff]

Basswood markets are volatile and the chance for loss is extreme in my opinion. There will be numerous pitfalls to go around if one expects to go from seeding to merchantable timber. 

[whitepine]

Thanks I realize the volitility of prices it is not even cut up here. I can see why the nurseries do not want  grow them with that poor of germination. Maybe try transpland or grow cutting.

[SwampDonkey]

Here's a few quick facts I found, not sure where you might be able to find seedlings though -

Basswood seeds show a pronounced dormancy and generally germinate poorly regardless of seedbed conditions

On cutover land, survival was best when a light overhead canopy

Shading aids the establishment and initial survival of basswood seedlings but heavy shade limits subsequent growth and development

Basswood is one of the hardwoods least susceptible to late spring frosts

Basswood sprouts prolifically, and this vegetative regeneration can be managed for sawtimber


source: http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsiltilam.htm

My experience with basswood germination follows Jon's post like a text book. I found they germinate very well under young aspen stands (15-20 years old). I did a management plan on a farmers lot and I found areas that were covered in basswood regen, then I'de walk 50 meters and the ground was covered in white ash regen. I've been trying for 5 years to germinate basswood by broadcast seeding in my plantations. Haven't had any luck. This fall I'm going to a 20 year old aspen stand and broadcast seed it. The real kicker is going to be the fact that the snowshoe hare will be hard on them.  And my woodlot had basswood growing on it before it was harvested, but I'm right on the fringe, so I'm using very local seed to try. The seed is coming from 2 miles away from where I'm planting it. I might even ask the farmer above to collect a dozen seedlings from him. He's 30 miles to the south.

[Larry]

<<<<-----<<<<  What's that white wood on the left?

Basswood markets are volatile and the chance for loss is extreme in my opinion. There will be numerous pitfalls to go around if one expects to go from seeding to merchantable timber. 

Guess that’s why I like it so much.  Just wish I could get few logs another 500 miles north of where I’m at.

I can’t get good survival rate either.

[Corley5]

Wish all my basswood would turn into sugar maple

[SwampDonkey]

Corley, I agree with your thinking, I'de throw in some yellow birch as well. But, I just want diversity. If I have 20 basswood on the whole woodlot, I'de be happy as a clam. Same with oak and butternut. I've only cut one basswood to try using the wood. I didn't have good luck milling it, laid too long. The best parts of the tree was the limbs that I put under cover. I'de never cut another one, just like looking at it. Same with hemlock, I'de never cut it, just like lookin at it.

[Corley5]

It makes good construction lumber as long as it'll be dry.  Good logs make nice lumber.  Lumber from knotty logs doesn't stay straight around the knots.  I've thrown away my share after taking it out of a stickered pile and it's not even suitable for sheathing.  I leave top logs lay.  If they're on the ground it doens't take long and they're gone.  Takes a sharp saw to cut it too.  Real fuzzy stuff

[SwampDonkey]

Larry it does transplant well. I dug up 3 - 4 foot trees, from a predominatly sugar maple stand, and planted them on my lawns, they all lived and have been producing seed. They were planted in May 1992. Where I found them was in areas that had stovewood harvested and there was alot of ironwood regen. I don't know here so much ironwood came from, but we have a few sparse mature ironwood around the area. This area also had white ash, yellow birch, beech and butternut.

Butternut really surprised me, as they aren't very shade tolerant. I cut one of the nicest butternut I ever seen for my area in that stand. It was growing right next to a twin butternut that was even nicer, 20 feet away. I should have left it, but there where a few younger butternut coming, so I figured it was ok.

Speaking of ironwood, I've seen it take over the understory on sugar bushes that were crown released. Talk about thick. I have 4 ironwood on the lawn and they are slow growing. They have all kinds of male catkins overwintering on them this year. I like those hop-like sacs they produce for fruit, real showy.

[SwampDonkey]

Takes a sharp saw to cut it too.  Real fuzzy stuff

I've noticed that to.

[Ron Scott]

Not much demand for basswood at present except that the wood carvers want some carving blocks from it. Also poor firewood.

[SwampDonkey]

I know what ya mean about the firewood Ron. Father cut a couple of basswood for firewood and twitched them out in the field where I immediately asked why he would cut them. He said they'll make smoke like any other tree. He didn't want to admit he made a mistake. Ya gotta look up sometimes dad.

[Corley5]

A few years ago there was an export market for good basswood.  It was going to the Orient for the manufacture of window blinds.  It dried up when a wood with similar properties became available from Siberia. 

[Larry]

  Takes a sharp saw to cut it too.  Real fuzzy stuff

That’s an interesting statement.  I sell KD basswood and frequently hear the only good basswood comes from Michigan.  Missouri basswood is supposed to be to fuzzy for high quality.

Yeap, we have our share of fuzz but not to bad and sometimes there won’t be any tendency to fuzz at all.  Always wondered about the actual truth.

[SwampDonkey]

Larry, sounds like a buyer trying to beat your price down. We'de here that rhetoric from people wanting table potatoes, coming in for a bag or two. They'de do the big nose curl and say with sarcasm in their voice, 'I don't want no great big potatoes, they're hollow'. My father sold thousands of boxes full of spuds as big as your feet and we've had a few at the dinner table over the years. I don't ever remember seeing any hollow ones in our varieties. But, I do know some varieties are hollow in the larger sizes, such as the Jemseg that was developed. That was a flop. Now that dad's retired, I can't find a potato that isn't light burned or doesn't turn black when boiled. Most are from PEI and the store is right beside thousands of acres of good potatoes. 

rant off

[jon12345]

kinda like wormy soft maple that is 'better'   

[whitepine]

Swampdonkey when are you getting the seeds and are you just throwing them out I have alot of 10 to 30 yr  aspen stands. Talked to a big logger does about 200 cd a day all winter and  he never cuts basswood so there must be a problem with the market. How about transplanting  I read they have a tap root could be a problem.  Like to try  everything. Thanks for the ideas.

[SwampDonkey]

Swampdonkey when are you getting the seeds and are you just throwing them out I have alot of 10 to 30 yr  aspen stands. Talked to a big logger does about 200 cd a day all winter and  he never cuts basswood so there must be a problem with the market. How about transplanting  I read they have a tap root could be a problem.  Like to try  everything. Thanks for the ideas.

I collect them in late September - October off trees in my yard. Depends on the seed year of course, and I just broadcast them by hand over the ground. I think I'm going to have to use a rake though to make sure the seed doesn't lay on top of leaves for rodents to get. Up till now I just tossed them over the ground in the plantations without raking them. I've been keeping a sharp eye out for germination, but haven't seen any. I'm a maticulous fella when it comes to watching and observing things. Easy to walk by stuff and never know it's there untill it swats ya in the face. I do beleive the seed is viable for long periods, but that would improve if the seed was in contact with mineral soil. Basswood don't like real dry ground, any place I seen it. Right in my area, I'm in the most biologically diverse patch of the earth (plant-wise) in the maritimes. I've claimed it all along, and now there is research to back that up. 

   Natural History of the Saint John River Valley Hardwood Forest of Western New Brunswick and Northeastern Maine

PS. Basswood isn't hard to transplant, but I've taken it from soft, rich, moist ground in May, if the ground is heavy in clay that could be different especially if it begins to dry out. Then again, basswood isn't likely to grow well there anyway.

[whitepine]

Swampdonkey good read. Sounds  like my area is similar to yours  most cut over once here in the 1890's I saved  about 10 acres of old growth black ash and yellow birch and I must say it is my favorite spot on the place also have a stand of 100 yr old red pine really nice. I was surprized to read you have black ash I had heard 90% of it was in Minnesota.  Thanks again for your help I will have to try a transplant this year.

[SwampDonkey]

I had a small stand of mature black ash that the beavers flooded out, but black ash can be found anywhere wet that supports tree growth here. I've got 3 or for on the lawn and they don't seem to grow much, they have the most peculiar flowers.

[jon12345]

Them things almost look edible   

[SwampDonkey]

Them things almost look edible   

The freakin coons like'm. They climb out on the ends of the branches and usually end up coming to the ground with the flowers. Stupid critters. I'll send ya some to sample next time ya feel hungry.