How do you lift logs?

[TW]

I am involved in putting an old loghouse back together after it was moved. The logs are hewn to 5 " thickness and seldom more than 10 meters long. We have put up most of the first storey by hand but it is getting heavy.
It is far too expensive to have any hired equipment standing when building mostly in the weekends.
I am looking for log handling ideas for this and future projects.

How do you lift and move the logs on the construction site when building a loghouse?

[Don P]

By dint of severe effort as much as possible  .
We sometimes work our way up step ladders, one end, one rung at a time.
Sometimes we build a gin pole and use come alongs or block and tackle, Ive lifted a 8x16"x27' oak log 2 storeys that way before.
We've used pump jacks and slung timbers under them.
After that its time to spend money.

The old timers also used 2 skid poles up the wall and a cross haul.
We can rent a hand operated genie lift, basically a hand operated forklift using a boat winch.

With any of those methods, keep your wits about you. You're just a bug to that timber.

As I was laying in recovery from the second hernia operation Dad asked how it felt to be outsmarted by an inanimate object, again  . The doc allowed that just cause you can get your arms around it doesn't mean you can lift it. Outsmart em, you'll last longer 

[TW]

The system you call skid poles was also used here in the old days but I thought that maybe other methods have developed on your side of the Atlantic.

What means "slung timber" ?

[Don P]

These are some pictures I've found of how someone has moved large timber when heavy equipment was not available. These methods are not approved and I wouldn't want to suggest you do anything unsafe, use your judgement.

The first picture is pulling a 6"x12"x20' green cypress girder in. The wall is braced with a diagonal 2x4 and a strap is wrapped around the window header logs. A "come-along" hand winch is pulling the timber into the building.



We often use a form of scaffolding here for siding called pump jacks, I don't know if you have something similar? The "pump jack" is a metal bracket that climbs up a post made of two 2x4's nailed together into a vertical post. Stepping on the lever, it ratchets itself up the pole with a horizontal arm holding the scaffold board. These are used in pairs or more of columns with jacks attached to them. By slinging the timber under those arms and having a well braced pole long enough, a person can climb the logs up the poles and swing them into place.



This is a shot of a gin pole that is attached to a rafter on the shed dormer roof side of the ridge. It extends out over a cathedral area and with a block and tackle was used to lift  20' 4x12 rafters into place.  Underneath the ridge you can see a row of pump jacks that were used to lift the ridge into place and then lowered to be used as a work platform for the top man.



I'm sure there's hundreds more ways.

[srjones]

With any of those methods, keep your wits about you. You're just a bug to that timber.

I couldn't agree more!      One is quickly reminded about the laws of physics once gravity takes over.

[TW]

I have never seen those climbing jacks. How do you get the log in between the scaffolding and the wall?

A gin pole would maybe work but it can lift only in a very confined area. Then we would maybe need one in each end of the longer logs so they do not break in the partition wall notches. That seems complicated.

Isn't there any system that can be attached to the top of the wall that then can be used to winch up the logs?

The dimensioning of the equipment is not a problem because the other man working with that house is a building engineer with about 30 years of experience. I am still in midst of my engineering studies. We just got a total lack of ideas, both of us.
Almost anything can be made from iron as a neghbour is a professional in that field.

According to Finnish law I can not sue you for the advice you give.

[Don P]

You mean in your country a person is responsible for their own actions? What a unique idea  . We have a few tender handed folks here that make a job of removing hard earned pay from people who actually work. The main point though, is to work safe.  We've noticed gravity can be stronger some days.

Would a couple of these welded up work? If the floor is strong enough they could be on wheels. The cable could be ratcheted in with a healthy boat winch

[Max sawdust]

Build a Gin pole.  Just helped a friend put one up to set 40' 22" dia pine logs as second floor joists.  It is quite the powerfull crane.



Max

[Jim_Rogers]

I have some gin pole info, but I can't post it here as it has been scanned out of a book (copy right laws you know).
But I can email it out to you, send me your private email and I'll send it to you.

To design a gin pole you have to first look at the load to be lifted. Using some timber weight charts you should be able to figure you load.
Then you'll know how strong the gin pole, whether metal or wood has to be.

If you want to lean a gin pole over the load to pick it up there are two ways to do it. One is as Don P has drawn it with the timber away from the building and the gin pole centered over the place where it will sit down.
The other way is to have the gin pole over the pickup spot and then move the gin pole over the sit down spot. Much harder to do but can be done with an adjustable back line and adjustable guide lines.

Another way to make a gin pole easier to lift heavy loads is to use blocks and run the line through the blocks. The more pulleys in the two blocks the easier it is to lift a heavy load.

Jim Rogers

[TW]

The idea of Don P is a little avkward in use because the floor is usually made last but maybe the crane can be developed.
In the old loghouses the floor is a entirely self supporting thing with the joist ends supported by the inside of the plinth and no structural contact with the walls. This is because a wellbuilt house usually outlasts the floor joists. A few years ago I was helping to replace the rotten second set of floor joists in a house. When an old house is moved the new floor is usually also made selfsupporting. Then it is natural to make it last.

The big setback with the ginpole as I understood it is that in this case the house is 13 by 7 meters (43' x 23') so even of we get the log lifted onto the walls it may be far from it's place and may have to be hauled all that way on the top of the walls. Many logs are too long to be handled inside the house because of the partition walls.

We tried to make some special forks for the front loader on the owner's tractor before we started building. The loader twisted too badly when driving so we had to stop to avoid to destroy the loader.

I have learned the hard way to think before I lift. It took 2 1/2 years before the back was fully well again.

[srjones]

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=16312.0
I'm glad you won't hold me liable for the crazy ideas I come up with. 

[TW]

Thank you srjones and Jim Rogers

The log cart seems to be a good idea. To fit my use it must be narrow and have big wheels. I suppose it can be made from  a shortened rear axle from a  small front wheel drive car with a pair of those narrow reserve wheels that some cars have. The workshop lift does not have any use in my case because it does not lift hingh enough and it needs one of your perfectly flat American lawns to move on. I would not dare to test the extension pipe.

The problem with the gin pole is that one has to lift one log at a time onto alternating walls so that one would have to move it all the time or have many of them. Othervice it seems to be a quite good substitute for the always missing "sky hook".

I discussed the problem with a friend yesterday evening and he suggested a modernisation of the old skid poles in a way so you can winch the logs up along the poles which are telescopic. The problem with his idea is that I do not want to work under hanging load and he wants to use a boatwinch attached to the pole. We did not find any solution to that problem.

[Don P]

Would something like this over the site work?  Moving a block and tackle or comealong from beam to beam as you lift each log. The posts would need good x and sway bracing.


I had this picture in the computer, kinda off topic, it's of a new top log being lifted from a pole I stuck out through the roof. That cabin was built like you described. I put in the third floor frame its had.

[TW]

Maybe

It is one of many possible but not yet perfect ideas

[logwalker]

If there are stout trees in the vicinity it is possible to rig a steel cable over the center of the walls and use a block. It worked well for me but I had the trees in place. Just a thought. LW

[logmason]

For mine renting a shooting boom all terain forklift was money well spent for the high 20 and 24 foot logs. It was 550 dollars and fuel for 10 days and came with forks and a 6 foot wide bucket. I used straps.
When logs are not on site, a log truck is the way to go. Things to watch out for are getting it stuck, and operators that can't set them down easy.
I have used most of the other ways mentioned, high wire, man power, gin pole, tow truck, and have found the two ways I first mentioned to be money well spent as in get r done safely. I spent a day and a half moving things around with the forks and bucket that would have taken who knows how long. I have pics but no scanner and don't know how to post them on this sight. Good luck and be safe.

[TW]

I am still thankful of all ideas because even if they do not fit readily they may be possible to develop.

The problem in this case is that the building work goes so slowly so it is impossible to have a rented machine standing there. There are still only a few of those forklift machines in Finland and they are very expensive to rent.

There is sadly only one tree nearby that is big enough to attach anything to.

At a second thought DonP's scaffolding system is maybe better than I thought, maybe it can be developed....

In case I happen to give crude answers, then I do not intend to be crude. I am just confused and slowly pocessing your ideas in my brain.


 

[Don P]

At the risk of giving you more ideas then  
Depending on what is around for scrounging. One other low tech way I've lifted is from industrial shelving. Our building supply was moving and sold their old shelving at auction. It was made to hold pallets of heavy material. A shelving unit is made up of 2 end panels of steel channel and box tubing about 3' wide and 12' tall. There are 8' shelving bars of different thicknesses that can be latched into the end panels at any height.
If logs to be lifted were stacked up along the outside of the building and the shelving towers were straddling the log wall and pile. A timber across a pair of shelf rails mounted at the top could act as your hoisting point.

This was a shot I had put on the forum before. If you look on the porch a unit of that shelving is there.


A book I'm reading has pictures of the hoisting mechanisms used for masonry in cathedrals and castles. One picture was of a fellow in a large hamster wheel, by running he was turning a shaft that reeled in a rope, through pulleys on a boom to the basket below.

Then I started thinking that some of those buildings took over a generation to build. I'd hate to be the career hamster/ crane motor  .

[Raphael]

  One gin pole option is to mount it to the tractor's three point hitch.  At the very least it makes relocating and erecting the gin pole easier; if the tractor is sufficiently massive it can act as the back line and give you pitch control.
  Once you have cable anchors in place on all sides of the building then jumping from side to side should be a fairly quick operation.

[barbender]

Hey Don P, what's the name of that book you're reading?

[barbender]

I am working on a floor hoist for lifting logs for my house right now, I'll try to post pics when I get it done.

[Don P]

Barbender,
The book is "Cathedral, Forge and Waterwheel; technology and invention in the middle ages". I hope to catch up before I retire 

The link is to a picture on the cover of the hoist I was describing. It is from about 1250AD. The text explains that the "great wheel" was usually constructed in the vault's roof framing and often was simply left up there. Notice the framing square being used in the foreground too.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060925817/ref=sib_dp_pop_fc/104-7547522-8534349?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S001#reader-link

[Jim_Rogers]

This could be another one of those type pictures:



Several years ago, some of the Timber Framers Guild members made one.
It is on display in Boston, MA.

Here is a shot of it when I saw it on display in Burlington, VT in 2002.



Jim Rogers

[TW]

At least there in one great advantage with living in the 21st century: one does not have to walk in a hamster wheel for a living. In Storkyrkan in Stockholm the big wheel is still preserved in the attic.

Raphael is probably talking about the same kind of tractor mounted gin pole as Joel Eisner and I were talking about in another tread. Joel's gine pole was quite small. The tractor we have acsess to is a 30 hp Deutz. It is slightly larger and heavier than the Ferguson TO 20 that you have in America. I think it is too small.
Has anybody tried such a gine pole in full scale?

[Jim_Rogers]

When I last visited with Jack Sobon at his home/office, he had just finished raising a barn in his yard for his daughter's future horse.
He cut the frame all by hand tools and raised it alone using a gin pole. His pole was about 6x6 at the top and larger at the bottom and he had a bottom piece but no braces. This bottom piece makes it more stable and heavier at that end which can make it somewhat easier to raise.
He didn't use a redirection block he just pulled the line straight down, and therefore he could lift four times his own weight. Four times because he ran the rope through two blocks each having two pulley in them. So if he pulled down with 100 lbs of force he could lift 400 lbs of timber.
Once the timber was lifted to the correct height, to be taller than his post's top tenons, he tied off the line to a peg on the side of his gin pole.
He then leaned the gin pole over the tenons by loosening the back line and side guide lines carefully and just a little.
After he had the timber (a plate) over the post's top tenon, he then lowered it until the tenon was just about in the mortise. Using another line attached to one end of the plate, called a "tag" line, he could align the plate to the post tenon. And just about lower it onto the tenon.
When it was started into the mortises he then climbed up his ladder and helped it together.
Of course this was all pre-fit on the ground first to insure everything would fit and align properly.
He told me his gin pole was 26' tall or so. And that it wasn't tall enough.

We found using the gin pole in my gin pole story, that it wasn't tall enough, and we intend to make one taller, later.

In order to carefully use a gin pole you'll have to figure how heavy the heaviest piece you want to lift will be. Then using that fact design your gin pole, and block and tackle, to be strong enough and tall enough to do the job.

Hope this helps.

Jim Rogers

[barbender]

Here's the pics of my hoist and house project.







The log I'm lifting there is 20' long and 13" on the butt end.

[TW]

Jim
I have no principles or prejudices against gin poles. A gin pole seems to be a good idea for lifting roof ridge logs and large beams and for timberframing. The problem is that when building a loghouse one has to lift one log onto one wall, then onto another wall, and so on. There are 7 walls on that house which means that we will either must have many gin poles or carry them around a lot. There are still about 10 logs missing on the sides and 20 on the ends of the building That means that the setup time becomes too long.
It is impossible to dig down any deadman logs in the frozen gound, for anchoting stayropes.

barbender
That seems to be a quite good idea. I wounder if it is possible to scale it up to 5 meters (=16') lifting height. Then I would maybe have to add some concrete as a counterweight at the drawbar end, and pull it with a tractor. The tops of the gables can still then not be reached but maybe they can be assembled using a gin pole. I will print one of your pictures and show it to my metalworking neighbour in order to hear his opinion.

Yesterday I was visiting a relative who is a metalworking and farm mashinery expert. He suggested a short extension boom  on the front end loader. Then the log would hang in a chain below it. Then there is no force twisting the loader as with the forks we tried and found useless. Somebody already had suggested that solution on this forum, but I must check if it lifts high enough. I doubt it will lift high enough.

The log hose project is currently standing still because of too much ice on the logs. That means trhat I have time to look for the best solution for the lifting problem.

[barbender]

TW- You have ice on your logs over there too? It's been warmer than normal this winter in northern Minnesota- hovering around freezing- and we keep getting freezing rain, so my logs have about 1/4" of ice on top of them.  I have a big propane torch I use to melt them off, just have to be careful not to give them that charred look .  I think you could scale that hoist up to lift 5 meters, it would require some bracing, a wider stance, and counter weight like you mentioned.  Mine lifts about 10 feet.  How big are your logs?

[TW]

The logs are hewn to 5 " thickness and usually less than 10 meters (=33') long even if the longest one is about 13 meters. Their height is usually less than 12" in the thicker end.

The propane torch seems to be a good idea. I will test it.

We have also had a warm autumn with lots of rain and slush that has frozen on the logs.

Can anybody tell me how to post a sketch on the forum? I got another interresting suggestion today.

[beenthere]

Save your sketch as a *.jpg file and load it into your image gallery. From there you can paste it in your message.

[Max sawdust]

TW,
Moi,
Would'nt the gin pole work if it is mounted on the deck of the structure, and just have a long enough boom to place logs on all the walls?

Kitos
Max

(My Finnish is pretty bad, or should I say foul )  Worked for a Finnish company for 18 years, been there dozens of times almost moved there once.  Love it best country ever.

[Don P]

I don't think it will do for your lifting TW, but we had a genie lift on the job Friday. I figured I'd put a picture of one here as another way to pick stuff up.

[TW]

A friend told me a good idea, which I hope you will evaluate for me.
I drew it on paper and got him to take a digital picture of it(jpeg) but how do I get anything into my gallery? The picture is 64 kb and saved on my hard disc.
I am even less experienced with computers than logbuilding.

[Jim_Rogers]

What you'd need is a central gin pole, nearly straight up, plumb, and then a moving "jib" off that.



This type of gin pole is erected nearly straight or plumb, and the jib swings around to lift things from different sides, such as position A and then rotated around the gin pole to position B.
This way it could lift logs or timbers and build the structure.

I've seen this done in books, you'll need a ring to go around your gin pole, for the jib to rotate.
You may need to get a sailer or rigger involved in creating this.

TW: Also, email the picture to me and I'll post it for you.

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

Here is TW's sketch of an idea.
I'm posting it for him:

[Jim_Rogers]

TW: If you add a block to the log end of the line you'll increase the amount you can lift or decrease the amount of pressure you'll have to use to turn the spool at the top.

Here is an example of block and tackle ratios:



Use mechanical advantages as much as you can to make work easier.

Jim Rogers

[TW]

Explanations to the sketch:

The idea is to use theese things in pairs like mechanised skid poles.
The leg is telescopic and made from iron pipes.
The winch at the top is a boat winch.
The piece that crosses the top of the wall is a square pipe that is open to the end like a socket.
The winch stand is made from square pipes of which one fits int the socket.

Use:
1 The leg is erected with one end on the ground and the other on top of the wall.
2 The winch stand unit is put with the vertical short pipe into the socket. The force fom the winch will keep it in the socket
3 The log is connected to the winch and hauled up and placed on 3" thick wooden blocks and secured.
4 The winch unit is pulled out of the socket and put aside inside.
5 The leg is pulled uotwards and comes free.
6 Caulking id put between the logs and the blocks are removed

Would this work?

The idea comes from a friend but I developed it further.

I hope for critical comments.

[Thehardway]

According to Archimedes  all you need is a fulcrum and a lever.  Perhaps this is over simplifying a little but he was correct that leverage is one of the best ways to move anything heavy.  I have moved some very heavy timbers alone by myself using a balance point and a lever with counter-weight.  A chain fall hoist is another method I like to use.  A 1 ton chain fall with 20' of lift can be bought for less than $100.  Rig it under a tripod or a stayed gin pole and you have got a vary portable and versatile lifting machine which with help of 1 assistant can handle just about any timber.  There is another plus to using chains as oppsed to rope or cable in that there is no stretch and in the case of a break the recoil is limited.  Is you have ever seen a rope or cable fail under heavy load you quickly realize this is a valuable asset.

If you have access to a junkyard or a company involved in demolition they can get you some steel bar joist trusses which are extremely strong and can be assembled to form a gin pole style lifting derrick.

[Max sawdust]

What you'd need is a central gin pole, nearly straight up, plumb, and then a moving "jib" off that.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

This type of gin pole is erected nearly straight or plumb, and the jib swings around to lift things from different sides, such as position A and then rotated around the gin pole to position B.
This way it could lift logs or timbers and build the structure.

I've seen this done in books, you'll need a ring to go around your gin pole, for the jib to rotate.
You may need to get a sailer or rigger involved in creating this.

TW: Also, email the picture to me and I'll post it for you.

Jim Rogers

Yes, yes................
A friend has one erected at a site, when we set the second floor log joists, I will take pics of it in the works.  TW if you have trees around the building site then you simply climb the trees to the height of the gin pole and run a cable though to a boat winch to erect the gin pole.  See my post on this a while back.

Metal parts can be made by a welder for a few hundered dollars, if interested I will take pics of the parts so you can get them made.

Nice thing is you can fit an entire crane in a small box, when you get on site, simply use logs for the pole and boom.

Max

[logmason]

Times when I had a floor deck to work off of, steel safe way scafold, on wheels, with a beam and hoist lashed over the top, and counter balance. Lift log off the floor, wheel hoist as close to wall as possable, crank it up. I will not go into specs as I am not an engineer, but have hoisted 24' x 8" oak as high as one story with this. With careful experience I learned what I could and could not do with this. Very time consuming.
I still refer to my other post of using a machine or log truck as being money better spent because of safety and gets it done way quicker, saving on labor.

[stl_6string]

I just found this link on the web....

http://www.oilyhands.co.uk/home_made_derrick_crane.htm

Very simple and capable of lifting heavy loads.

[TW]

Thank you all for your advice and ideas.

I have not yet decided excaktly what I am going to do but I will print this thread as a source of ideas.
Currently I am busy with othet things but I have made some sketches and calculations.

It is helpful to have a suorce of ideas because one often does not see the obvious solutions when thinking alone at home.