Global Warming

[crtreedude]

That is correct flip - but if you take 100 cows and put them in your living room - you have contamination - but spread them over 1,000 acres, and it just helps the grass grow.

I don't like living is sewage. It is a natural by-product, but too much of a good thing can get a little stinky if you know what I mean.

To my knowledge - the world isn't getting any bigger - but we seem to be expanding. Therefore, the waste concentrates.

[Modat22]

Another problem related to all this is the way goods are produced and replaced. Not long ago items where made to last (the cost was higher) now a days many items are considered disposable and not handed down at all. Buy it, it breaks or a new style comes out, throw it away buy another one.

Thats not a good use of resources in my book though I'm guilty of committing the same crime.

[Kirk_Allen]

I try to keep things simple because I am a simple minded person  

As a kid our winters in Illinois were wicked.  2 foot snow storms were not uncommon.  Today, they are a thing of the past.  Many blame global warming for milder winters. Call it what you want but I think the reason is simple and we try to make it to complicated.

We had very little pollution controls until the late 70's.  As a kid I can remeber seeing whole communities that burned coal for heat and a good snow it only took about an afternoon and everythign was sooty black again.  

The focus has been on CLEAN BURNING STUFF.  Great.  We do breath better.  We are healthier. Our winters are milder.  

WHY?  With less pollutents in the air we recieve more sun.  Did anyone forget the sun?  ITS HOT.  Let more of it get through and things are going to warm up.  

Oh, CR, the world is getting bigger in circumfrance.  Living in CR I bet you can relate to that!

[flip]

But 100 cows dumping in my living room does not contribut to global warming any more than 1000 cows dumping there.  The waste will eventually be reabsorbed back into the earth, maybe not in my life time but it will eventually.  We need to look at the bigger picture, we will not change anything to a noticeable extent in our lifetime.  I'll be the first to say we live in a dirty world but I do not believe humans are causing the natural warming and cooling of the planet.  I don't know how much the earth can sustain as far as population, we won't be around to see that day and neither will our great great grand children, they will have to deal with it then, we just need to do no harm and deal and live with what we have now.

[Gunny]

A timely subject to be sure since our home-educated children just viewed an interesting bit of info from GMA which indicated that NASA scientists now predict that the polar ice caps may not last another 30-40 years at the current rate of loss.  In fact, I was going to start a thread entitled something like this: "NASA Scientists: Liberal Bleeding Heart, Tree Hugging, Enviro-Wackoes?"  Until I happened upon this thread.

These government-sponsored quacks had the gall to state directly that unhindered human activities are the single greatest factor--not historic cycles--influencing these climatic shifts.  Geez, who can a guy trust for info these days except for Rush and G. Gordon and Howard Stern and Fox TV?

Since each of our four youngsters get to grow up into the immediate future, they tend to place a little credence into what NASA scientists have to disclose.  But I'm thinking these clowns' credibility will be questioned soon enough by those who control the sound-bites in this land. 

How soon we seem to forget that old adage: 'The Prophet will not be heard in his own land."!

[Modat22]

This is a subject that many have strong feelings about as we can see. I guess one would have to be careful what he or she says or the whole thing might blow up.

[Greg]

Having a background in geoscience, I like to stay up on what goes on in the earth sciences.  In the last Geoscience magazine, an article stated that due to the increased warming of the earths atmosphere that the artic ocean could be ice free for part of the year by the end of this century.  That would be the first time in about 1 million years.

Over the last megamillions of years our climate has constantly changed from warmer than now to times when the earth was an ice ball. 

I believe the argument is not whether the earth is warming, but whether these changes are a direct result of human activity and if so should we do something about it. On the other hand, most of the warming could be caused by totally natural cyclic forces and we have no control.  We know we can change microclimates, just look at the heat islands caused by the big cities.

The Anasazi (sp) moved out of most of the southwest because of a long drought, so climate changes are a constant happening.

What do some of you think about all this?

Before I pour gasoline on this fire, what exactly is your question.

The replies thus far have covered about 1/2 dozen aspects of this broad subject, which is a sure fire way to have a heated argument that results in no better understanding of thie topic, IMO.

I think your question from the original post is:

Are human beings a substantial contributor to global warming, or is our "footprint" negligible in the big picture of climate change over geological time?

The questions people have already jumped into, are different:

What (if it is a problem) can and should we do about it? And

Can we as individuals even do anything about it?"


Greg

[tnlogger]

 A very intersting thead to say the least 
 Now I have to agree with Kirk on this but think this earth has and always will run in cycles.
 And there are many differant opions on this thru known history we have had a tropcal to ice age and now we seam to be going back to a tropical climate. Will we see it in our life time no. will our children see this they might but their children will surly see the begining.
 now i am i of the few on here with no formal schooling> Ihave a GED but I have many years of teaching myself. It was but 50 or so years ago that very few would even be interested or even aware of this. Now with communacation being what it is more and more of the populas has been flooded with almost more then they can grasp.
 What can we do? Well myself I will live as I have a simple life. I will conserve and as the experts would say be environmently concerned.
 well that'll give ya ssomething to think about or it might just give you a good laugh. 

[Cedarman]

The climate on this earth changes all the time.  Sometimes in decades, sometimes it has taken millions of years for there to be much change. This is evident in the geologic record of the last 4 billion years.  According to some geologists the  earth was frozen over pretty well completely  several times between 1 billion and 600 million years ago as evidenced by the rocks of that period.  Visit Canyonlands National Park and look at the huge sandstone walls that took a million years of desert conditions to produce. Climate changed slowly during that period.  Look at the 4 major and several minor glaciation periods of the last 500,000 years. Climate changed in decades during this time period.
I believe that the atmosphere of the earth is warming up at the present time. CO2 levels are the highest by far in many millenia.  CO2 can come from fossil fuels, but it can come from the oceans and huge amounts can be spewed by volcanoes.

The earth does not give a squat about what we do.  There is no good or bad as far as the earth is concerned.  The earth will react to the changing conditions that affect it.  If the sun puts out more heat, the earth will change. If huge numbers of volcanoes erupt, the earth will react.  The earth does not care about life. Life will adapt to the surrounding conditions. Species will survive or go extinct.  Happened in the past and will happen in the future.

Humans are the only ones who make choices. Humans are the only ones who think in terms of good or bad.  Global warming is a condition. It may be good for some of us, others will suffer.

If humans are the cause of global warming, shouldn't we be heading for solar energy, wind energy, geothermal energy, nuclear energy?  If humans are not the cause of global warming shouldn't we be heading in that direction anyway?  What would happen if we had our own solar energy plant in our backyard or roof top? 
So for me we shouldn't worry so much if global warming is occuring, but those things that are  in our best interest as a society that will keep our earth habitable for us for a long time.

[Ernie]

But 100 cows dumping in my living room does not contribut to global warming any more than 1000 cows dumping there.  The waste will eventually be reabsorbed back into the earth, maybe not in my life time but it will eventually.

Try telling our government, they tried to charge we poor farmers a tax on cow farts claiming that they caused global warming and that under the Kyoto protocol we had to pay.

[SW_IOWA_SAWYER]

I was pondering something as I ate my lunch at my desk. I read the post about Iraq and I thought about not posting , I did post, and I think I killed the thread

I was reading the global warming thread and I found it interesting.

I guess my question is what has happened to the truth.
When I look at all these issues I always seem to ask myself what is the truth.
People who present themselves as experts in whatever often have a motive that lies hidden.
They have agendas that they don't expose and use information that is more speculation then the truth to shape public opinion.

For Example: Is the Earth Climate Changing?
I would say that almost everyone would agree it is. I guess the question is are we causing it and if so can we alter its course.
The Earth is approx 6 billion years old we have been around for just a fraction of that. I know that much of North America was once ice, if we had been around then, would we have said we were causing global warming? Melting the glaciers
I guess my point is do we really know.
It is very difficult to disern the truth from the agenda.
I don't have the answer I just have a distrust of what I hear and read.
I guess I just wondered what other folks thought.

Kirk I remember as a kid what seem like huge snows too I may see if I can find some information on recorded snowfall in my area.

I hope I have not broken any forum rules

[Jeff]

Nobody kills threads here accept admins. And that is the truth. This belongs, merged with the global warming thread. Thats where you will find it.

[Modat22]

the truth is based on your reality or what you perceive to be reality, example, someone might find Sharon stone attractive where others might see her as a shell fish.

I personally think shes a fine looking shell fish. 

[SW_IOWA_SAWYER]

I think that is my point, whether Sharon Stone is cute or not is a perception/opinion, mine may or may not be different from yours. Whether she is causing global warming or not is a fact not based on perception but on science (unbiased if that is possible anymore).  I guess that is what I am trying to say.

I guess I should just keep my opinions to myself and go back to de-forresting the planet one tree at a time  I am only kidding!!!!!!!

[GF]

IMO
    Until the weatherman can predict a 7 day forcast accurately without changing it daily, I cannot accurately believe that NASA, NOAA, etc have to say what will happen 30 years from now.  No one can accurately predict the future about global warming.

[SwampDonkey]

Queen Charlottes escaped the last ice age, about the only place in Canada that has.
http://www.britishcolumbia.com/maps/bc/bc_qci.html

I don't know exactly what that means, but it's interesting.

Brooks peninsula is the only part of Vancouver Island to escape glaciation, and
today produces plant species found nowhere else.

http://www.britishcolumbia.com/ParksAndTrails/Parks/details/?ID=331

[whitey]

   not tring to get to far off the subject but. People are screaming for renewable resorces  we have a company that put in wind turbine for power . first they was sued because they might harm ground squirrls when they install them then they ruined somones vista, then they might kill some birds . what do people think. global warming  may happen. where I'm at the winters are as cold as they were 50 years ago.  I think the enviro-nuts have taken over .    nuf ranting
         Whitey

[Greg]

IMO
    Until the weatherman can predict a 7 day forcast accurately without changing it daily, I cannot accurately believe that NASA, NOAA, etc have to say what will happen 30 years from now.  No one can accurately predict the future about global warming.

So if tomorrow your Doctor tells you have dangerously high cholesterol and you've been having frequent chest pains of late, do you change your behavior, diet, take a pill etc. or just keep on doing what you have been doing because you feel fine at the moment, and "no one can predict the future"?

If you care anything about yourself, or your family, you would do everything in your power to reduce the risk. You might even change your behavior, diets, medication, even its inconvenient, or cost your $$$$. I know I would.

There is plenty of data out there pointing towards the theory human emission of CO2 levels leading to increased temperatures. Is this the only factor at play here, of course not. Sure there are natural cycles going on, some of which we understand, some we do not. I agree short term trends over the last 10 to 50 years don't PROVE anything. When I was 9, back in 1977, all the talk was of the new coming Ice Age!

But I think the cholesterol thing is a good analogy to global warming. We can either sit back and bury our heads in the sand, or try to change. It won't be easy. No one can prove with 100% assurance that mankind is adversely affecting the climate of the planet.

But guess what, its the only home we've got. The stakes are pretty *DanG high. Given that maybe it would be a good thing to begin altering our behaviors and try to reposition the economy for the post fossil fuel era. Seems like common sense to me.

Flame on!
Greg

[Jeff]

Unless I misunderstand the "Flame on!", I want to make it clear that flaming cant occur here because when it begins, I will remove all the environmental oxygen.   

[Cedarman]

True, those that predict the future have a tough job and always stand the chance of being wrong.  But that is different than observing the facts. It is the interpretation of the facts that can be different.  CO2 measurements are what they are unless all the equipment and the way they are used are in error.  Beauty is a perception that is not quantifiable.  CO2 concentration is a measurable and repeatable thing.
Global warming is occuring.  How much warming will take place is anyones guess. It could reverse at any time.  What if our solar system passes through some gas (different than passing gas) that lowers the amount of sunlight that reaches the earth? Could be cooling time.
I think that this is a fascinating subject and peoples reaction to it is very interesting.

Politics have messed things up many times in the past, why should it be any different now.  Oil companies with their big fat wallets can pretty well control who runs for office and in turn what direction our country will take as far as new forms of energy go.

BTW, I am not in favor of hydro power because it won't be long before all the man made lakes are silted up and all we have will be a big concrete wall with a big mud flat behind it.  Small hydro may be ok, but don't know much about it.