Global Warming

[Cedarman]

Having a background in geoscience, I like to stay up on what goes on in the earth sciences.  In the last Geoscience magazine, an article stated that due to the increased warming of the earths atmosphere that the artic ocean could be ice free for part of the year by the end of this century.  That would be the first time in about 1 million years.

Over the last megamillions of years our climate has constantly changed from warmer than now to times when the earth was an ice ball. 

I believe the argument is not whether the earth is warming, but whether these changes are a direct result of human activity and if so should we do something about it. On the other hand, most of the warming could be caused by totally natural cyclic forces and we have no control.  We know we can change microclimates, just look at the heat islands caused by the big cities.

The Anasazi (sp) moved out of most of the southwest because of a long drought, so climate changes are a constant happening.

What do some of you think about all this?

[PawNature]

I don't think human activity has anything to do with anything. This Earth has went through climatic changes since there has been an Earth. I think climate changes affect human activity but human activity does not affect climate changes.

[flip]

The earth has been warming and cooling for millions of years.  The B/S the media and enviro. wackos are tagging as a natural process of the earth is making me sick.  I think we have to have SOME control on emissions from cars and industry for the safety and health of those in the areas where the emissions are greatest.  Common sense here.  I still have not read a publication that convinces me that we are heating up the earth.  It is what Oscar Mayer calls B O L O G N A.

[moosehunter]

No signs of global warming here, -4 deg yesterday, +4 today

[crtreedude]

Global warming is an interesting topic.

I think the question I have is how many people can you fit on this globe called earth? 6 billion, 10 billion, 12 billion? without causing serious problems.

Most of us enjoy the outdoors. Generally - more people, less wild areas because people have to live somewhere.

As far as it just being environmental people - go do the research, it is a heck of a lot of scientist who are very concerned.

The disturbing thing for me is that I suspect that the environment is much like me riding a bike - I can lean it over and over and over because of momentum, but at a certain point,I fall over.

The question? Where is that point? We act like the earth can absorb anything we do - which was true when we were only 1 billion people - but now that we are 6 billion?

The scary thing is that China and India want to live like the USA now. So, instead of the resources being consumed of 300 million - how about multiple that by 2 billion more people. Can the world take that?

To me the earth is not a god - I am not a panatheistic - but that also means that it isn't infinite. The key is know WHEN we pushed to far - and what will be the consequences if we do.

Sort of like your motors - if 3,000 RPM is good - surely 10,000 is better - right? I don't think so.

I don't know what publications aren't convincing you - but when the oil companies start telling me that THEY believe in global warming - I get pretty scared I'll tell you. That would be like when the tobacco companies finally said that smoking causes cancer. 

[flip]

I don't want to be misunderstood, we need to be good stewards and do no evil to our environment but we must also be able to live and grow as a society.  I have a cousin that is an environmental lawyer  so when we get together she tries to convince me to save the trees.  I do, I tree cycle

[Medina]

I think the people who believe we humans have that much POWER need to have an ego check. Of course with populations as they are, humans will have some type of affect on the earth, but geez, there are only 2 that I know of that have the power to make catastrophic change, wait 3: the wife, the 6 year old, and the almighty himself.

[Modat22]

I think there is a bit of global warming and probably it is partially human related, I think the biggest cause (related to humans) is the release of carbon that has been locked up in the earth for long periods of time ether in the form of fossil fuels or or sulphur compounds.

I don't think we should stop cutting trees or anything since many of the trees we cut contain carbon that won't be released in our life times being made into houses, furniture or other keepsakes.

[flip]

What then, per say, are the experts suggesting that we do?  I mean, without costing trillions of dollars and choking out industries and driving consumer prices through the roof?  OK, so what the the scientists and oil companies suggest that we do?  I have yet to hear a viable suggestion that keeps us in the modern era and keeps us out of horse and buggy.

[crtreedude]

One person can do very little - even 1 million - the question remains - how many?

You take a few people out in the countryside - burn wood - heck, bury your trash behind your place - it doesn't really matter.

Now, create the NYC metroplex with about 24 million people. You have a serious issue with smog, pollution, and waste disposal.

Just like them DanG deer - a few of them are cute - let them overpopulate and pretty soon your tulips are toast.

[Modat22]

Well we're already doing things to help the environment out of need, industry is trying to come up with cheaper fuel sources that actually burn cleaner. This trend has been caused by both costs, environmentalists, and public opinion.

Eventually we'll be off the fossil fuel standard and there will be a difference, however the carbon that has been released is already out there and will take a rather long time to be locked up in the earth again.

Thats my opinion. I'm doing my part I'm building wood furniture or other things that hopefully won't be burned for a long time 

[slowzuki]

Each of us over our lifetime burns up huge amounts of oil that took tens of thousands of years to form, it won't come back any time soon and we are pumping it straight into the air, of course it will change the enviroment.

Anyone got solutions? Not me yet, but I suspect there will be plenty of money to be made in the alternative energy industy during my lifetime.

I think the quicker countries move to renewable fuels the better off they will be in a global market.  The US has a huge advantage with all its arable land for fuel crops.  If they are in a good position with technology they could maintain their world leader position when oil begins to become too expensive.  If not places like Brazil and such with a non-oil dependant culture could become more powerful.

[flip]

24 million people are still going to generate the same amount of waste/emissions wether they are congregated in a city or spread out across the country.  The factor there is if their health is affected, not the health of the planet.  The main argument of the people that believe in warming is that each person is creating too much waste/emissions.  Show me a way to reduce that waste without costing me a fortune or a lot of time (that I don't have) and I'll do it.

[crtreedude]

I am doing my part! 30,000 trees and should be a lot more this year!

Honestly - I think the market will help - for example, I suspect that sales of gas guzzling cars is WAY down now. The pain at the pump tends to make you think I am sure.

The flip side of the equation is this - 6 billion people can make a huge impact if they start shifting just a little the other way.

[flip]

The only effective, reliable, clean juice at this point is nuclear but too may people are scared of it.  But it still does not address vehicle emissions or problems in other countries.

[crtreedude]

The issue is that if the size of the land is static - and the number of people grow - the land (or earth) ability to absorb the impact is stressed.

Place a 100 people in one 1000 acres and you will barely notice them - place the same people in your house and it isn't a pretty sight!

The issue is the size of the earth is finite.

Dump a few pounds of manure on your garden and it probably will help - dump the sewage from NYC on your garden and you won't want to go near it for a LONG time.

It is a ratio:  number of people / size of the land

[Modat22]

Solar hydrogen generation isn't bad but it doesn't produce enough gas to provide for many in a timely fassion.

We need our space elevator so we can throw some solar generators into space and heve them beam high power microwaves back to the planet which then are converted into electrical power (I've been reading too much sci/fi)

[crtreedude]

You know, most of the solutions can be started in the cities - not the countryside. Usually they are not cost effective in the country side. Besides, it is hard to do most of them in the countryside.

For example, when I lived in NJ - for a while I was only 10 miles from where I worked. Most of the year I would have loved to just ride my bike there and back. Easy ride, not hill. One big problem.

You could die on the way. No place for a bike during rush hour traffic. Instead of more lanes of traffic - how about ONE bike lane in the cities?

I was not alone in this - I knew lots of people who would have gladly ride a bike instead of being stuck in an hour of traffic. (bike - 30 minutes - car 1 hour)

Car pooling in the cities is another way - better public transportation - etc, etc.

The only thing I would have give up was some fat... 

[iain]

To my mind, anyone that thinks we dont have an effect on our environment is wearing pretty big blinkers

Yes the earth pendules, it always has and always will,
but there are now enough of us to make a differance
to how far it swings

and you can start counting the effect we have, from the start of large scale burning of fossiles

we and the other organisms that share this planet, have evolved over millenia to adapt to how the planet is now, every thing you have is in a niche
the very niche it needs to be in to survive, it dont matter where on the planet it prospers, the niche is the same for each organism

i dont think the Earth really cares if we are scratching about on it, in the long run it doesnt matter very much,




 the Earth will survive ANYTHING we do to it

its got all the time in the world, we got about 75yrs each, it may not be the same Earth, but it will carry on, we can burn all the energy we can get our hands on, till its all gone if you want,
 but if the climate is changing to hotter, we are going to need the very some energy we just burnt to get into a mess, to adjust to a new way of life,




and one person can make a big differance



iain

[flip]

But that 100 people on 1000 acres is still making the same mess, just spread out more, the issue is waste production per person.