More questioning! How about a bar/chain size discussion? Ratios?

[jokers]

..............Or we could just assume that full skip chain ruins crankseals. 

 

[solodan]

David B, hope you got a skidder to move that 395 around  .

It's flat down there where David B's at. Up here in the other California, it's different though. big steep mountains, and my 3120 gives me my workout. but the days I use this monster usually start at 10:30 and end by noon. The good part is, this is one tool my wife never borrows.

[David B]

Up here in the other California

That's funny, I get a kick out of all the assumptions people make about california. Like it's all a beach or a desert or a big Los Angeles ghetto or something. Your right on about the "other" California. California prolly has a good representation of most of the other parts of the country. For instance, I'm in the desert and have the Colorado River, Mountains, Mexico, Arizona, San Diego, Pacific Ocean, all within 2 hours of me. That's why I love it here. So much so close.

[solodan]

 

[SawTroll]

I think Rocky_J hit the nail quite squarely with the above post.

If the use of skip chain causes failiure, so should the use of short bars & chain - and it doesn't - at least not unless the carb was adjusted with much longer bar & chain in place.

[David B]

Still curious about ratios, guys. Hp to inches or ccs to inches? Saws prolly last longer with smaller bars, no?

[Bill]

David

For what its worth I've seen different recommendations by the different manufacturers. My experience is really limited compared to most here ( about 7 years of firewood cutting at 5-10 cords / year between '79 - '86 and started up again this fall ) so given all that here goes.
I own two saws
Stihl 019T  - 35cc - 1.7hp - 14 bar ( mfg rec'd 12-16 )
Poulan 245a - 75cc -  unk hp but guessing around 4 to 4.5 - both 18 and 24 for bars ( I think I remember them telling me I could get a 28 back when I bought the saw and also even at 10 cords a year for 7 years this would still be a "new" saw )

When I got the Stihl in '98 their catalog said this
Stihl 029 - 57cc - 3.7hp - 16 to 24 bar
and the new catalog says
Stihl ms290 - 56.5cc - 3.75hp - 16 to 20 bar    go figure ?
or consider
Stihl ms390 ( mid range saw ? ) - 64cc - 4.3hp - 16 to 28 bar   versus
        ms361 ( pro saw  ?  ) - 59cc - 4.4hp - 16 to 20 bar     how come 5cc and 0.1hp translate to 8" less of bar size

and the darn catalog even shows the 290/361/390 using the same 18" 3/8" chain - 33rm266 so they're not playing games with narrower chain

Guess by now you've figured out that's its cold, dark and snowy outside so I'm burning up the phone lines - hope some of this makes some sense to someone.

Bill

[David B]

Looks like you've been busy. Thanks.

I made a chart of the big boys current saws from their web sites listing the hp, weight, ccs, bar sizes...couldn't find anything very consistent. Also, Madsen's and Baily's rate the saws from more bar then the manufacturer. That's why I'm posting looking for user preference.  I think I prefer more engine to bar, maybe the saw will live longer. I can't wait to try my 395 with it's 30". I've only run a Jons 2050 with 20" on it.

[timberjack240]

288XP and a 22 in bar works good for me
the trees aint that big in pa to start with so i can saw aprt cut firewood and trim with it and if i was allowed a could cut down. ill say one thing after you trim hemlocks all day with one let me tellya yur earms let ya know it 

[StihlDoc]

the new catalog says
Stihl ms290 - 56.5cc - 3.75hp - 16 to 20 bar    go figure ?
or consider
Stihl ms390 ( mid range saw ? ) - 64cc - 4.3hp - 16 to 28 bar   versus
        ms361 ( pro saw  ?  ) - 59cc - 4.4hp - 16 to 20 bar     how come 5cc and 0.1hp translate to 8" less of bar size

and the darn catalog even shows the 290/361/390 using the same 18" 3/8" chain - 33rm266 so they're not playing games with narrower chain

Guess by now you've figured out that's its cold, dark and snowy outside so I'm burning up the phone lines - hope some of this makes some sense to someone.

Bill

The reason for the MS 390 recommendation of 16"-24" bar length vs. MS 361 recommendation of 16"-20" bar length is due to the ANSI standards. To meet the standards manufacturers must recommend low kickback chain and reduced kickback guide bars on saws below 3.8 cubic inch displacement engines. The MS361 engine is smaller than 3.8 cubic inches and STIHL only offers reduced kickback guide bars up to 20" length. The MS390 is larger than 3.8 cubic inches and a different ANSI classification applies. Therefore a larger bar length is listed in the literature.

Although other bar and chain combinations are available, STIHL recommends the use of low kickback saw chain and reduced kickback guide bars for all chain saw applications.

[Pullinchips]

i've got a ms390 running the 33r whaterver, stihl green link low kickback chain (original one), and a 20" bar.  Works great and will really throw the chips, especially in soft woods.

-nate

[Bill]

StihlDoc

Great explanation - I've been toying with a backup ( replacement ? ) for my chronologically challenged  ;-) Poulan 245a and couldn't make heads nor tails over the Stihl catalog (4.3 hp/MS390 can handle the 28" bar but the 4.4 hp/MS361 only  the 20" bar just wasn't making sense especially since the same catalog says they run the same bars and chain  ) -  so now it makes sense. Since I cut mostly firewood for myself I figure I probably don't "need" a pro saw but could be convinced if I knew it would last much longer.

Thanks  - Bill

[GammaDriver]

Bill, I think what StihlDoc is handing the thread is the reason why shorter bars are placed on the 391 - government standards.  What he decided to not say is the same thign that Stihl, to protect itself against lawsuits in this country, cannot say - that a longer bar does work on the 391.  And of course a saw manufacturer is always going to recommend a low-kickback chain/bar combo, as that will always be the safer set-up.  It seems to me that information from such sources (those who are under scrutiny by the government) will never be fully accurate, just somewhat safer. 

[Rocky_J]

It is also extremely rare to find a new saw for sale with full chisel chain and not the safety chain. Even on full blown pro saws, you will get the safety chain unless you specifically ask for the real stuff. Matter of fact, I can't recall ever hearing a saw shop employee mentioning the non-safety chain unless I specifically asked for it first. It's like they aren't allowed to suggest it. 

[macpower]

Rocky, you hit the nail. Saws under 3.8 cu. inch go out the door with ANSI reduced kickback chain on them, period! My insurance bills are high enough, thank you. What you by for chain and put on your saw at a later date is up to you.

[SawTroll]

It is also extremely rare to find a new saw for sale with full chisel chain and not the safety chain. ......

No such problems over here, except for the cheapest homeowner saws, the saws are sold with real chain.
Our problem is that the selection of chain models and gauges that are imported is severely limited. smiley_angry