More questioning! How about a bar/chain size discussion? Ratios?

[David B]

I have one Jonsy 2050, hopefully have 2 running soon. I have full compliment 20" on one, and it seems to have a little trouble when I sink the whole bar in a big log. So I'm thinking 20" with full skip for the other 2050. I wanna keep both 20" for interchangeability and use one for big logs and one for limbing. I like 20" so I can "reach out and cut something" That and the ratio of bar to saw just looks right  ::

After I try the second 2050 with full skip, I'll decide whether or not to get another bigger saw. When I do, I wanna run around 28-36". If I ran a saw where say 28" is the medium or smallest bar for it, would full comp cut more/faster than say 36" or whatever is the longest with full skip? Kinda like, bigger saw, smaller bar, saw would be heavier, but bar would be lighter, shorter, easier to handle? I'm learning, tossing ideas around...what yalll say?

[SawTroll]

I think you are stretching thigs a bit by using a 20" bar on the 2050.
The saw will cut significantly better/faster with a 16" or preferably even shorter bar.

If you have to run 20" reglarly, get a bigger saw!

[David B]

Would full skip help? Or maybe I should say how much would it help?

How about my other Q? Hp/weight ratios? If 20" is a little much, I pretty much need to look for another saw. Noticed the manufacturers rate the saws for less bar than some others. Say 6-7 hp and about 32"? Or ccs/inches?

[David B]

NEVERMIND YALL, JUST FORGET IT...I DON'T NEED ANY HELP FIGURING OUT WHAT/HOW BIG A SAW I NEED...


....cuz I just won a newish 395XP on Ebay. WOOOOOOOOT! YEAH!

[oldsaw]

Oh yeah, the slippery slope of power.  I've gone from cutting everything with a Homie Super XL, to almost forgetting I still own a Homie Super XL.  I mean, it's a nice saw and all, but the 066 I got makes me feel like Luke Skywalker going through a log.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Captain]

Typically full skip is not used in bar sizes less than 30"  Then it is not necessarily for power utilization, but chip removal that speeds the cut. 

Full comp chain on smaller loop sizes is faster than full skip.  I've actually got to try some semi skip on my high rpm saws with 8 spline rims...to see if they stay cooler in semi dry hardwoods.

Captain

[crtreedude]

I have a Stihl 090 - is that losing control?

It is attached to an Alaskan rig - but we do using it to drop some trees and to cut down corteza trees. (a touch harder than steel...)

[sawguy21]

I have a Stihl 090 - is that losing control?

It is attached to an Alaskan rig - but we do using it to drop some trees and to cut down corteza trees. (a touch harder than steel...)

A little is good, a lot more is better, and too much is just enough. Seriously, you probably need an 090 for dropping and milling some of the woods you are dealing with

[IL Bull]

Soooooo size does matter?

[Ed_K]

 David B, hope you got a skidder to move that 395 around  .

[twostroke_blood]

David B, hope you got a skidder to move that 395 around  .

   

It seems to me that weight is almost an advantage while cutting. After all, I'm not holding my saw back while going through a log, and when you get up into the 395xp range of saw with a 36'' or larger bar, whats a Lb. or two matter? Except for the carrying around part. With the caliber of tree that thing is gonna cut, how many does anyone expect to cut in a day anyway?

[sawguy21]

   

 Except for the carrying around part.

And that is the worst part of a heavy saw, especially on steep ground.

[twostroke_blood]

Yes but unless your a pro and gonna climb them hills every day, what does a couple of Lb's matter? Saves me Money at the gym.

[oldsaw]

Soooooo size does matter?

Real men have at least 36" and saw enough to pull it...

I've got a 42, and there are manlier men than I on this site.

mark

[David B]

It's nice n flat here, and I'm not stumbling around in the woods...I am actually gonna be whacking a few trees this size into firewood...that's why I got big momma 

[crtreedude]

Honestly, the 090 gets lots of use and I have never found it to be too heavy. (I can hear the crew howling right now) The reason I have never found it too heavy - IS I HAVE NEVER USED IT! I have them convinced that I am too old... (As you can see from the picture, my hair is pretty white) Normally, Costa Ricans don't have hair as white as mine, until they are 90...

Yeah, you have to have a saw like a 090 to handle this:



or worse yet...



This is the base - and it goes up 200 feet. Granted, the base is bigger than the trunk - the trunk is only two horses across. 

[Furby]

Real men have at least 36" and saw enough to pull it...

I've got a 42, and there are manlier men than I on this site.

mark

Yeah, mine's a 72".

[twostroke_blood]

Yeah, mine's a 72".

72"  beats my 60"

[Dale Hatfield]

 Using a full skip on a short bar of 20''  can cause some  problems. I have heard  guys running full skip and having crank seal troubles.
I run semi skid without trouble / I run full on my 36''  394

Dale

[Rocky_J]

Using a full skip on a short bar of 20''  can cause some  problems. I have heard  guys running full skip and having crank seal troubles.
I run semi skid without trouble / I run full on my 36''  394

Dale

umm, unrelated occurances. Just because I was wearing a blue shirt the last time my saw broke doesn't mean that the blue shirt caused the breakdown.

The crankseal issues are typically caused by overheating of the engine. The biggest cause by far of an overheating saw is forcing a dull chain. Now, in my experience I've found that many users of full skip chain do so because there are less teeth to sharpen, and they like that because they cannot sharpen a chain. This could then be extrapolated to the assumption that users of full skip chain will have dull chains more often than average. The use of dull chains causes saw overheating and therefore a higher incidence of blown crankseals. But it still boils down to user error/ abuse.

Or we could just assume that full skip chain ruins crankseals. 

[jokers]

..............Or we could just assume that full skip chain ruins crankseals. 

 

[solodan]

David B, hope you got a skidder to move that 395 around  .

It's flat down there where David B's at. Up here in the other California, it's different though. big steep mountains, and my 3120 gives me my workout. but the days I use this monster usually start at 10:30 and end by noon. The good part is, this is one tool my wife never borrows.

[David B]

Up here in the other California

That's funny, I get a kick out of all the assumptions people make about california. Like it's all a beach or a desert or a big Los Angeles ghetto or something. Your right on about the "other" California. California prolly has a good representation of most of the other parts of the country. For instance, I'm in the desert and have the Colorado River, Mountains, Mexico, Arizona, San Diego, Pacific Ocean, all within 2 hours of me. That's why I love it here. So much so close.

[solodan]

 

[SawTroll]

I think Rocky_J hit the nail quite squarely with the above post.

If the use of skip chain causes failiure, so should the use of short bars & chain - and it doesn't - at least not unless the carb was adjusted with much longer bar & chain in place.

[David B]

Still curious about ratios, guys. Hp to inches or ccs to inches? Saws prolly last longer with smaller bars, no?

[Bill]

David

For what its worth I've seen different recommendations by the different manufacturers. My experience is really limited compared to most here ( about 7 years of firewood cutting at 5-10 cords / year between '79 - '86 and started up again this fall ) so given all that here goes.
I own two saws
Stihl 019T  - 35cc - 1.7hp - 14 bar ( mfg rec'd 12-16 )
Poulan 245a - 75cc -  unk hp but guessing around 4 to 4.5 - both 18 and 24 for bars ( I think I remember them telling me I could get a 28 back when I bought the saw and also even at 10 cords a year for 7 years this would still be a "new" saw )

When I got the Stihl in '98 their catalog said this
Stihl 029 - 57cc - 3.7hp - 16 to 24 bar
and the new catalog says
Stihl ms290 - 56.5cc - 3.75hp - 16 to 20 bar    go figure ?
or consider
Stihl ms390 ( mid range saw ? ) - 64cc - 4.3hp - 16 to 28 bar   versus
        ms361 ( pro saw  ?  ) - 59cc - 4.4hp - 16 to 20 bar     how come 5cc and 0.1hp translate to 8" less of bar size

and the darn catalog even shows the 290/361/390 using the same 18" 3/8" chain - 33rm266 so they're not playing games with narrower chain

Guess by now you've figured out that's its cold, dark and snowy outside so I'm burning up the phone lines - hope some of this makes some sense to someone.

Bill

[David B]

Looks like you've been busy. Thanks.

I made a chart of the big boys current saws from their web sites listing the hp, weight, ccs, bar sizes...couldn't find anything very consistent. Also, Madsen's and Baily's rate the saws from more bar then the manufacturer. That's why I'm posting looking for user preference.  I think I prefer more engine to bar, maybe the saw will live longer. I can't wait to try my 395 with it's 30". I've only run a Jons 2050 with 20" on it.

[timberjack240]

288XP and a 22 in bar works good for me
the trees aint that big in pa to start with so i can saw aprt cut firewood and trim with it and if i was allowed a could cut down. ill say one thing after you trim hemlocks all day with one let me tellya yur earms let ya know it 

[StihlDoc]

the new catalog says
Stihl ms290 - 56.5cc - 3.75hp - 16 to 20 bar    go figure ?
or consider
Stihl ms390 ( mid range saw ? ) - 64cc - 4.3hp - 16 to 28 bar   versus
        ms361 ( pro saw  ?  ) - 59cc - 4.4hp - 16 to 20 bar     how come 5cc and 0.1hp translate to 8" less of bar size

and the darn catalog even shows the 290/361/390 using the same 18" 3/8" chain - 33rm266 so they're not playing games with narrower chain

Guess by now you've figured out that's its cold, dark and snowy outside so I'm burning up the phone lines - hope some of this makes some sense to someone.

Bill

The reason for the MS 390 recommendation of 16"-24" bar length vs. MS 361 recommendation of 16"-20" bar length is due to the ANSI standards. To meet the standards manufacturers must recommend low kickback chain and reduced kickback guide bars on saws below 3.8 cubic inch displacement engines. The MS361 engine is smaller than 3.8 cubic inches and STIHL only offers reduced kickback guide bars up to 20" length. The MS390 is larger than 3.8 cubic inches and a different ANSI classification applies. Therefore a larger bar length is listed in the literature.

Although other bar and chain combinations are available, STIHL recommends the use of low kickback saw chain and reduced kickback guide bars for all chain saw applications.

[Pullinchips]

i've got a ms390 running the 33r whaterver, stihl green link low kickback chain (original one), and a 20" bar.  Works great and will really throw the chips, especially in soft woods.

-nate

[Bill]

StihlDoc

Great explanation - I've been toying with a backup ( replacement ? ) for my chronologically challenged  ;-) Poulan 245a and couldn't make heads nor tails over the Stihl catalog (4.3 hp/MS390 can handle the 28" bar but the 4.4 hp/MS361 only  the 20" bar just wasn't making sense especially since the same catalog says they run the same bars and chain  ) -  so now it makes sense. Since I cut mostly firewood for myself I figure I probably don't "need" a pro saw but could be convinced if I knew it would last much longer.

Thanks  - Bill

[GammaDriver]

Bill, I think what StihlDoc is handing the thread is the reason why shorter bars are placed on the 391 - government standards.  What he decided to not say is the same thign that Stihl, to protect itself against lawsuits in this country, cannot say - that a longer bar does work on the 391.  And of course a saw manufacturer is always going to recommend a low-kickback chain/bar combo, as that will always be the safer set-up.  It seems to me that information from such sources (those who are under scrutiny by the government) will never be fully accurate, just somewhat safer. 

[Rocky_J]

It is also extremely rare to find a new saw for sale with full chisel chain and not the safety chain. Even on full blown pro saws, you will get the safety chain unless you specifically ask for the real stuff. Matter of fact, I can't recall ever hearing a saw shop employee mentioning the non-safety chain unless I specifically asked for it first. It's like they aren't allowed to suggest it. 

[macpower]

Rocky, you hit the nail. Saws under 3.8 cu. inch go out the door with ANSI reduced kickback chain on them, period! My insurance bills are high enough, thank you. What you by for chain and put on your saw at a later date is up to you.

[SawTroll]

It is also extremely rare to find a new saw for sale with full chisel chain and not the safety chain. ......

No such problems over here, except for the cheapest homeowner saws, the saws are sold with real chain.
Our problem is that the selection of chain models and gauges that are imported is severely limited. smiley_angry