Author Topic: Live Oak: Is it a Red or a White Oak? (Read 3271 times)

Curly_Woods · « **on:** September 17, 2002, 07:12:17 am »

I would like to know for sure whether a Live Oak is a Red Oak or a White. I have never cut any, but have been asked to do so and want to know what to expect to to the customer.

Tom · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2002, 07:36:49 am »

Live Oak is one of the White Oaks.

Expect to stick your blade into one of the toughest woods around. Green is the only way to cut it.

It has a swirley grain, as if the tree grows in circles. The Medullary rays are quite prominant and it makes pretty quarter sawn boards.

The sapwood is off white to gray and the heart is dark gray.

You will need a lot of freshly sharpened or new blades because they will quit sawing properly even when you think they are still sharp. It takes a really sharp blade to produce good boards in this stuff.

Expect to use a lot of water/blade lubricant. There is so much heat generated that gumming is a problem.

Smaller logs of 12" dia. are easier to cut. If he gives you one in the 20" plus range, try to develope a lot of patience.

Be sure to tell him that his shop tools will have a hard time too.

LeeB · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2002, 12:24:22 pm »

Everything Tom says is true about Live Oak. you will have to slow your feed rate to a crawl. I have better luck with blade cleaning by flooding at the end of a cut and running dry through the cut. Don.t know if Texas Live Oak is the same as everywhere else. Hardest stufff I ever milled. I only get 1-150bf per blade. Don.t hesitate to change blades, or you will get a poor cut. I guess it is like other white oaks, in that it checks really easy. get it out of the sun as quickly as yoou can. It will start to check in just an hour or so on a hot day. LeeB

SawBilly · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2002, 03:28:19 pm »

Is a Live Oak the same as a Pin Oak? long slender leaves 1/2" wide 3-4 inches long.

Tom · « **Reply #4 on:** September 17, 2002, 03:44:15 pm »

no sir.
Sites I surfed say that Pin Oak (Quercus palustris), is a Red Oak. One of the fastest growing Oaks and used more for ornamentals than timber.

It has a life of about 80 years which puts it in the catagory of Water Oak and Laurel Oak. Some forest have reached 138 Years but little is actually known of its life span.

I found a lot of sites on Quercus palustris .

Squirrell_Boy · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2003, 11:16:10 pm »

It is my understanding that Live Oak ( Quercus Virginiana) is neither classified as either a red or white oak, but that the wood is more characteristic of the white oaks. It is the heaviest and most dense of all the north american oaks. It has a high specific gravity(measurement of density) about .9 or so, compare that with white oak ( quercus alba ) which is about .65 It is about 10lbs per cubic foot heavier than white oak i believe. I know they used to use it a lot in old wooden ships. It is some major tough stuff.

beenthere · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2003, 01:43:38 am »

Tom is right, it is in the white oak group (check the Wood Handbook which is about as 'official' as one can get next to Tom

).

Maybe Squirrell_boy could tell us what source excludes live oak from the white oaks, and we could learn more 'information'. As he correctly points out, there is a marked difference in the wood properties of the white oak and live oak within this group. And those differences will show up when sawing live oak.

Squirrell_Boy · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2003, 11:23:12 am »

Howdy Beenthere: Sometimes i'm not sure we are talking about the same thing especially when it comes to botany. I am not a botanist that is for sure. I have read that red oaks, white oaks and the live (evergreen) oaks are seperate groups that have seperate scientific group names. I will get back to you on sources of this information. I believe that live oak is more similar to white oak microscopically than it is to the red oaks and has more of the white oak characteristics. I guess for woodworking or timber use purposes it would there for be referred to as a white oak. I think a place to get more information would be R.Bruce Hoadley's book Identifying Wood. He is the man when it comes to wood science.

Squirrell_Boy · « **Reply #8 on:** October 09, 2003, 07:13:59 pm »

Wow now i am really confused about this fascinating subject
that Curlyman and you all got going here. After some more research i found out that the oaks (quercus species) is seperated into 3 groups based on their microanatomy. The red oaks are Erythrobalanus and white oaks are Leucobalanus
the third group is Eucobalanus i don't know the common name
for this group. Our native white oak is Quercus Leucobalanus Alba. Northern Red Oak is Quercus Erythrobalanus Rubra. Live Oak is Quercus Erythrobalanus Virginiana. Therefore the Live Oak is a red oak! I think. Whew! Maybe we should check with the Dr.- R. Bruce Hoadley. Thanks for the interesting topic.

beenthere · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2003, 08:01:18 pm »

Squirrel_boy
I found the scientific (botanical) name for all the oaks are in the genus Quercus (according to Bruce Hoadley in his book, Understanding Wood). Bruce is another good source, as you point out.

Live oaks (there are about four species in the U.S.) include the live oak, Q.virginiana (south east U.S. along the Gulf coast and Atlantic coast, and three others in California (Canyon live, Interior live, and California live oaks). To add confusion, there is a tanoak (not a real oak) which is in California and is Lithocarpus densiflorus.

That's a mix of information from Hoadley as well as "Trees of North America" by C.F. Brockman

Tom · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2003, 08:37:28 pm »

Hoadly is not a bad place to get information but you have to understand that we have some jam up foresters on this board and a mile and half of old posts where we have discussed some of these same subjects.

Go read this thread and you will find links to other threads, all of which discuss White and Red Oaks. Yep even Black oaks which are Red oaks and willow oaks which are red oaks and chesnut oaks which are white oaks etc. etc.

Lots of good reading.

http://www.forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1061731451;start=5

Squirrell_Boy · « **Reply #11 on:** October 09, 2003, 09:13:48 pm »

Thanks Tom and Beenthere, but what exactly is a jam up forester? Seriously though, i have been coming to this website
just a short time and i really enjoy all of this. Looking forward to reading the old posts and what the foresters have to say. I really like the variety of people and topics here. I'm going to have to thank Jim Rogers for telling me about the forestry forum. Do you agree that Live Oak is a red oak though? There is a staggering amount of different oaks.

Tom · « **Reply #12 on:** October 09, 2003, 09:24:34 pm »

Live oak is one of the white oaks. One of the identifying characteristics of White Oaks is closed (plugged) Tyloses and Live Oak has them. Red oaks have such open grain that you can blow air through them.

White Oaks are used for wet cooperage like wine etc.
Red oaks are used for dry cooperage like nail barrels etc.

A jam up forester is a Ron Wenrich or a Ron Scott, or a Don Staples or a Tillaway or a ........... I'm going to get into trouble because I'll forget one of them

then I'll end up with Jam all over me

These guys really know their stuff and will usually join in on a thread like this pretty quick.

When i suggest that folks read old posts, I'm not suggesting that their post and thread isn't necessary to the board, only that the old post may add information. There is no sense in re-inventing the wheel every time.

Another very good reference is The Wood Handbook. It's link can be found in the link library and I think in the knowledge base and on my website, www.tomssaw.com. I'll come back later and add it to this post when I find it.

Here it is
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
Don't try to print it, it is huge.

Bud Man · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2003, 05:00:57 am »

According to :TEXTBOOK OF DENDROLOGY, by HARLOW AND HARRAH -5th edition, All Live Oaks fall into the Red Oak family. In the past there had been some controversy as to where the various live oaks should be placed and they were reclassified as Red Oaks.

Tom · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2003, 09:36:33 am »

See there! I told you one of'em generally showed up.

The more that I research this the more information I find that puts the Live Oak in the Red oak group. It's causing me to have to do some major adjusting in my mind. All my life, I've been told differently and have even researched this question of late.

There may still be some wavering by some dendrologist because I find quite a few references that puts Live oak in its own grouping. I can see how you could have been confused.

From my own personal experiences of putting a blade into Live Oak, I find that it cuts more like a white oak than a red oak. Of course that is no reason to call it one or the other.

Wood Handbook= http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/CH01.pdf

Squirrell_Boy · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2003, 04:22:58 pm »

Tom: I thought Live Oak had the filled tyloses too. Making it more like white oak. I thought that was one of the reasons it was used in shipbuilding besides it being really strong and growing close to the coasts. Maybe one of the foresters could fill us in on this woods unique characteristics.

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2003, 06:08:44 pm »

I think someone is just playing with you guys

I don't think there is such a thing as a 'Live Oak'------------It's not listed in "The Trees of Missouri"

Minnesota_boy · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2003, 06:27:00 pm »

I'm sure it's not listed, but we have dead oak up here. Stuff I was sawing today was definitely dead, been in a pile for at least 2 years.

Chet · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2003, 07:15:47 pm »

Live oak is ranked as the heaviest native hardwood, weighing 55 pounds per cubic foot when air dried.
Noble, live oak is not native to Missouri. It's range is the lower coastal plain from southeastern Virginia to southern Florida and to southern Texas.

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2003, 07:36:30 pm »

Chet,

You're just pulling my leg. I checked out my OFFICIAL Mo. map and them places aren't even on it.

Chet · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2003, 07:51:51 pm »

Dang it yur right.

Checking my Yooper map, I can't find um neither. Da furthest south it shows is Lambeau Field in Green Bay.

Squirrell_Boy · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2003, 10:14:30 pm »

Hey where the hell is Curly? He started all this. Did he cut some of that Live Oak ( thereby killing it ) and what did he tell that customer? Red, white, live or dead?

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #22 on:** October 10, 2003, 10:52:20 pm »

Chet,

Ya really otter get an OFFICIAL map like mine--------------everyone knows that Lambert's field is just across the road from where the old Miller house uster be.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #23 on:** October 11, 2003, 06:36:22 am »

Tyloses isn't a good measure for the distinction between red oak and white oak. I've seen chestnut oak that had a nice red color and little tyloses. Its still a white oak.

Live oak falls into a willow oak category. I always thought they went into red oak lumber.

DanG · « **Reply #24 on:** October 12, 2003, 07:35:00 am »

I don't know if it's red or white, but the wood is different enough from either that it shouldn't be sold as just Red Oak, or White Oak, imho.

Now I don't know how true this is, but it seems to have some validity. An old guy once told me that Live Oak dulls a saw because grains of sand are drawn up into the wood by the powerful leaf system. I don't know if that's how the sand gets into the wood, but if you hit a piece of it with an axe, in the dark, you can see the sparks.

I wonder if that is why the stuff dulls a blade so quickly, rather than just the toughness of the wood?

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #25 on:** October 12, 2003, 07:59:25 am »

Well DanG,

I hope you won't take offense at me saying this, but if you don't mind me saying so, I know I ain't the smartest guy around ( as has been recently inferred on another thread), but doesn't it seem rather ill-advised to be chopping wood in the DARK?

DanG · « **Reply #26 on:** October 12, 2003, 08:15:47 am »

True, true, Noble. But I ain't the brightest bulb in tha string, neither, so I've done it.

When you're trying to get outta da woods on a tractor wit no lights, and a log is in da way, ya does whatcha gotta do.

Kevin · « **Reply #27 on:** October 12, 2003, 08:26:42 am »

Quote

doesn't it seem rather ill-advised to be chopping wood in the DARK?

Now this is solid proof indicating if 'n you hang around this forum long enough ...you're going to learn something of value.

DanG · « **Reply #28 on:** October 12, 2003, 08:53:15 am »

So, ya learned that me and Noble ain't too smart?

If y'all think chopping in the dark is ill-advised, ya should see some of the other things I've done in the dark.

Come to think of it, choppin' wood may be one of the safest things I ever done in the dark.

Jeff · « **Reply #29 on:** October 12, 2003, 09:26:27 am »

Tom · « **Reply #30 on:** October 12, 2003, 10:09:00 am »

Is that thing Patented?

beenthere · « **Reply #31 on:** October 12, 2003, 11:24:50 am »

Dang
Do you really get enough 'sparks' to light your way???
Guess that depends on how fast you chop - in the dark - without tractor lights - with a log in the way. Worse yet if the log was live oak, which is probably dead if its laying in the way. Okay, I will back off.

LeeB · « **Reply #32 on:** October 12, 2003, 11:30:07 pm »

Live Oak is very suseptible to oak wilt, which attacks primarily red oak, so I guess that lends to the red oak side. I always thought it was white. Seems to be pretty rot resistant which leans toward white. All I know is that it is the hardest stuff I ever tried to saw. LeeB

Squirrell_Boy · « **Reply #33 on:** October 13, 2003, 07:01:21 pm »

Howdy LeeB, Do you happen to have any pictures of Live Oak? I 'd like to see some both quartersawn and flatsawn and maybe making some sparks, but not on fire.

LeeB · « **Reply #34 on:** October 13, 2003, 09:48:18 pm »

guess I'm gonna haf ta do sumpin about this picture download stuff. Don't have the software to do it just yet. Least wise I don,t think I do. LeeB

Stan · « **Reply #35 on:** November 04, 2003, 08:05:57 pm »

Can somebody SHOW ME where this Missouri is on the official map?

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #36 on:** November 04, 2003, 08:17:42 pm »

Heck yes Stan,

It's good to welcome new guys that are interested in learning stuff.

If you punch the place above where it says members map, you get the official forestry forum members map. Next find the highest place in hiwaaee. Missouri is the third state on top of that.

RedHawkRidge · « **Reply #37 on:** March 25, 2004, 06:37:33 pm »

Does live oak have leaves with rounded lobes or pointed lobes? My understanding has been that a key differentiator is that reds have pointed lobes while whites have rounded lobes.
jim

DanG · « **Reply #38 on:** March 25, 2004, 08:05:40 pm »

Welcome, Redhawk! Live oak leaves don't have any lobes, at all. They're just this lil' ol' oval thingy, about 3" long by 1" wide. Live oak appears, to the casual observer, to be non-deciduous, because the leaves hang on through the winter, all nice and green, then fall off just as the new leaves are coming on. They are only naked for a day or two, and the new leaves cover them right back up.
I couldn't really put them in a red or white category, as I said in an earlier post. In fact, the only thing I know of that makes them an oak at all, is the acorns they produce.

RedHawkRidge · « **Reply #39 on:** March 27, 2004, 06:50:53 pm »

DanG:
Thanks for the welcome.
I used to think there were 2 types of oak: not red or white, but live or dead. Then I started to travel and visited Austin Tx occasionally, where there's lots of live oak, including the "treaty oak". It was just hanging on, somewhere between live and dead, after some idiot/religous freak decided it needed to be killed with massive doses of herbicide.
Anyway, I never had the opportunity to examine details like leaf structure etc of the Live Oak species, other than the simple overview that it appeared to be a groteseque version of white oaks that commonly grow in pastures here in Wis.
jim

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Author Topic: Live Oak: Is it a Red or a White Oak? (Read 3271 times)

Curly_Woods