Dull Saws

[Striker]

I have a problem that I have been trying to solve. I work for a company that does hydroseeding and tree work. At times we have upwards of twenty people working. Along with doing most of the tree work or at least supervising on it, I do the maintanance on the saws. I also get to teach these people how to use the saws. What I can't get through to some of them is how to tell when the chain is dull.( We carry spare chains instead of hand filing on the spot.) Some of the guys will run a dull chain all day if I don't tell them to change the chain.I have showed the how nice a sharp chain cuts and how not nice a dull chain cuts.I will point out the cutters on the chain and the damage done to them and tell them to change chains and all I get is," Well it still cuts good". It may still cut good but it would cut a lot better with a sharp chain.

I am open to suggestions on how to get through to them

 Thanks,Jeff

[Billy_Bob]

I have the same problem with safety. They don't listen!

You can lead a horse to water....

Anyway you might have more luck if you require them to switch their chains every so many hours of use.

10:00 - OK everybody, time to switch your chains... Get an air horn and doughnuts, that will get 'em running!

[johncinquo]

Using a dull chain will wear out a saw, equipment abuse should not be tolerated on the job site, therefore, well you get the idea.  If they stood around breaking rake handles or throwing seed away how would you handle it?  I just think they are abusing equipment and it should be treated exactly as that.  If you provide extra chains theres no reason why they shouldnt be changing them out as needed.  I dont want to sound like I hate working with people who jus dont get it, I just love saws and can feel them crying out in pain when abused.   

[twoodward15]

I look at it differently.  These people obviously don't have any idea how to properly use a chainsaw.  They need to be trained immediately.  Ask around on the forum how many of us purposely cut with dull chains.  I think we all know that answer.  Number 2.  They obviously don't care about their work.  It's just a job to them.  You'll never be able to change that with this group.  I think it all boils down to the old saying "you get what you pay for".  everyone is so caught up in getting it done cheaper that they failed to realize that paying more money will get the job done faster and will allow more work to be done, hence making it cheaper.  It's time to get a new crew or get your crew more enthused about their job.
    I'll even give a short scenario.  I grew up in the grape vineyards.  When it was picking season we had 3 guys.  1 on the picker one driving the tractor and one running the chute (where the grapes come out).  We'd fill up 6 bins and everything would stop.  We'd go unload them onto the flat bed, pick up 6 more( 3 on each trailer with two set ups running), have a few slugs of some schnaps, sit around laughing and get back to work.  We'd spend an hour doing all this, and it needs to be done a total of 4 times.  So we expended 12 man hours just goofing around.  Let's say the pay is 8 bucks an hour (a good wage where we were at the time).  That is $96 wasted dollars.  It would take about 7 hours to pick a load.  Now we get 4 guys and the picker runs non stop.  each tractor gets unloaded by it's driver and three men always stay harvesting.  The job get's done in 3 hours or less now.  More money is made faster now so the pay is up to $10 an hour.  it costs 120 bucks to pick a load as opposed to $168 and we do it in less time!

[sawguy21]

I have the same problem with safety. They don't listen!

You can lead a horse to water....

Anyway you might have more luck if you require them to switch their chains every so many hours of use.

10:00 - OK everybody, time to switch your chains... Get an air horn and doughnuts, that will get 'em running!

I hear ya I looked after the saws and light trucks for a heli-logging company and the attitude was terrible. I tried to stress the importance of looking after the equipment so they could keep working and get paid but a number of the crew members just did not care. If there was something to break, they would find it and they would break it. Shuddup and get another truck out here right away. Attaboys in the company newsletter helped with some crews

[Rocky_J]

I suspect you have too many chainsaws and too many unqualified chainsaw users on the job. The only people who should be running saws are those who have proven an ability to do so safely and without abusing the equipment. For those who don't get it, simply take the saw away and let them drag brush or dig with a shovel until they have another opportunity to prove their qualifications to run a saw.

I suspect the biggest problem is the person letting unqualified operators run chainsaws. 

[Striker]

All of our crew have been instructed in the safe and proper use of chainsaws. They are required to wear their PPE. Of the two worst offenders, one is a engineering student, the other is a tree climber. Most of the crew are average to above average intelligence. Some just don't give a large rodent's rump.

When on a clearing job I try to put the saw abusers to doing jobs that give them minimum contact with the saws. But almost everyone on the job needs to use the saw at one time or the other.

Replacing people isn't an easy thing to do around here. We pay higher than average starting pay and still have problems getting qualified people.

[Rocky_J]

Striker, your last post seems to project that there is a correlation between intelligence and knowing how to run a saw. Judging from my 20 years experience, I've found that isn't always the case. I know lots of super-smart college type intelligent people (engineers, doctors, lawyers, judges) that don't have a clue how to run a saw. Some of my best and most trusted coworkers never finished high school. If they don't have the aptitude to run a saw properly, then a hardhat and glasses aren't going to keep them from hurting themselves or someone else. Some people got it and some people will never get it.

And I'm sorry to hear that your climber isn't qualified to run a saw either. He sounds like an accident waiting to happen.    Every tree company I've ever known had trouble finding and retaining people who know how to run a saw. I estimate that one out of 10 tree company employees can run a saw safely around here, and about 1 out of 3 tree company owners. I guess that's why I don't work with others any more, too many dangerous people.

Wow, I'm really starting to get negative here. This attitude is why I quit posting at ArboristSite last year, I guess I need to ease up and quit trying to fix everybody else for a while. Don't take my post personally, it isn't you. I love working with trees and love running chainsaws and it pains me to watch most other saw operators because so few of them have a clue.

[thecfarm]

Some people have the idea that they don't want to do any "extra" work to make their job easier and some people even feel that they are taken something away from the company,even though they are working harder to do it.Kinda like the wheelbarrow story.Two guys have to move a pile of gravel with a wheel barrow.Both tires are flat.One guys takes the time to blow his tire up using a hand pump.The other guy doesn't want to take the time because he doesn't want to do more than he has to.But he'll push that wheelbarrow all day long just so he doesn't have to work so hard. ::)Yes,the other guy moves more gravel,but he does it alot easier than the other guy.The easier way is useally the most productive way.It can be very hard to make some people understand this.

[twoodward15]

I never did agree with the "average starting pay" gig.  If I'm running a business and I can't get qualified people to work for me and someone that I know can do the job walks in he's going to get turned away because of a lack of money.  When you find a good one you need to pay him what he is worth.  I realize that this might be out of your hands too but you've got to take it up the chain.  On another note, how about doubling or tripling the amount of saws out there so that they can just pick up a new saw instead of sharpenign chain.  the way you are talking about the chains not lasting I'd think another saw for each guy would be cheaper.  I will certainly just grab another saw when mine gets dull and sharpen them all at the end of the day.  heck I've even been known to grab another saw when one runs out of gas and refill all of them at once and start the rotation again.

[Striker]

Rocky, I have never taken anything you say personally because I appreciate your candor and forthrightness.
No, I don't correlate intelligence to ability to run a chainsaw. I would say that common sense is needed to run a saw, more so than intelligence.
We carry plenty of chains to the job site to keep the saws going all day. I just get a little frustrated  after going over and over with some of them about how to tell that the chains are getting dull.

Pay is based on the persons abilities and skills. Those that can do more get payed more

Jeff

[Bill]

Striker

I just cut firewood for mostly personal use so my experience is limited but the matter of a dull chain is always there when I'm cutting. Sometimes there just needs to be a rule or such that everyone follows ( I used to cut with a group of friends but they've all moved on ) . I have heard of two different philosophies. The first is easy - every tank  ( or two, or ? ) of gas and the chain gets a touch up ( or replacement for sharpening later ). The second is to follow the size of the chips coming off the saw. Small chips equal a dull chain. I'm sure there are other standards that pro's use and I've heard both  these ways sworn to by trusted friends but I tend to follow the first - easier to measure whille cutting.  I don't know that any method is right and the others wrong - just that at some point the operator needs to have a rule ( or guidance or ) that you enforce and that says to him/her - time to sharpen the chain now before something bad happens. ( eg maybe you only give them a small gas can and when they empty it they get gas and a fresh chain ?  - you need to match it to your people - like the army - if you didn't follow instructions you got KP or court martialed if bad eneough - your call )

Good Luck

[twoodward15]

Striker, if your crew is on a regimented break schedule ( 9 am lunch and 2 pm kind of thing)  how about making them stop 10 minutes early to change the chain, clean the saw, and refuel it?  I'll bet they will jump on that.  It'll make their break seem longer.  If not you could always cut the number of people running saws in half (effectively doubling your saw supply) and make them change out saws at a certain hour and have a chain swap at lunch time.  Each saw would probably have 2 or 3 tanks run through it and then lunch would come and fresh chains would be installed.
    How about gettting a clamp on jig and some files and having them sharpen them on the saw.  maybe they'd do it themselves.  To them it probably seems like less work.  maybe they don't want to swap the chains because they are unsure of correct chain tension?
 

[David B]

If they won't keep 'em sharp, maybe they shouldn't be sharpening them. End up with a bunch of improperly sharpened chains.

[Deadwood]

You just need to buy one husqvarna, that's what I did. It was the greatest purchase I ever made. Now everytime my Stihl starts cutting like my Husky did, I know it's time to stop and sharpen the chain

I'm just kidding of course.

Here is a thought that is a little outside the box. What happens if you bought them chains that cut longer between sharpenings...ie Carbide Tipped chainsaw chains? I have never run them, but the concept is sound. If they will not sharpen their chains then at least maybe they can use chains that stay sharper longer. I know they are expensive but maybe the cost could be off-set by the increased production? I don't know, I am just throwing this out for debate I guess.

I hate to get into the whole pay issue thing, but I will. There probably is a middle ground, but the people that work for me (manager) are well paid in my book (22 dollars plus full medical coverage...pretty good for Maine anyway) and they are the laziest bunch of people I ever met. You have to drive them out of the break room, keep them busy so they don't sleep on the job, and constantly write them up for failing to do their job. I'm just saying higher pay does not always mean increased production. Then again, if they are only being paid ten bucks an hour, then I conceed the point.

[Tom]

Here I go with one of my opinions again.

I think one of the worst things that can  happen to equipment is when the operator loses contact with the maintenance.    He doesn't have to be an expert mechanic or even the one pulling the wrenches but, he sure needs to be envolved.

When there is a separate maintenance organization, it has to be in the position of "taking" the tool away from the operator and replacing it with another.  This means that the maintenance group sets the maintenance standards, inspections and times.  The biggest problem with this is that the tool doesn't always adhere to time schedules.  A nail in a log can upset the apple cart within the first few minutes of use after a maintenance period.

Operators need to be concerned about the use of their tools.  That starts with education (a good thing for new chainsaw users anyway) and it should include maintenance and time frames.   There should be operator assigned maintenance as well as shop assigned maintenance.  A chainsaw tool and file should be as much of an operators job as the saw itself.   Mechanics should be available but not the only ones to touch the saw.

I would start by designing some means for the operator to carry on-the-job tools with him.  A pouch that could be strapped in the small of his back or on his thigh and contained a wrench, screwdriver and file might be a good idea.  I never understood why the sawmill manufacturers didn't design a "sleeve" somewhere on a chainsaw for a file. 

Perhaps a little wire brush, some wire or something to keep the bar groove clean could be included.  A couple of band-aids never hurt either.   This pouch could be turned in with the saw at the end of the day and refurbished.

It's also important that the workers know that they are performing in an acceptable manner.  If they are only cutting wood and get yelled at if they stop, then their interest in sharpening a chain will decline immediately.   Does someone in a supervisory capacity call attention to how sharp so-in-so keeps his chain?   When lunch time comes,  is there ever a mention of  Joe Blow's chips were flying head high for 30 feet behind him?  Is it ever called to attention, in front of the other operators, how "straight" Sam cuts and  bucks all of his logs?   It's reverse chastising.  It's giving the others a mark to hit.   There is no reason for someone to do a "better" job unless there is a goal to be attained.   Chastising them for not hitting the goal isn't as affective as providing a goal and praising those who reach it.

The assignment of a particular piece of equipment to an operator will give him reason to take care of it.  Working out of an equipment pool provides no sense of ownership and no reason for pride.  A trucker who is assigned a new truck will be a lot more apt to keep it clean and operable than a trucker that works in a slip-seat situation in fleet of trucks.

Turn your maintenance group into an organization that will help, with a smile,  on a moments notice, rather than grumble about the operator's tearing up the equipment.  Draw the operators into the big picture.  Pick one that is particularly good at a job and let him show off his skill in a class of new-comers.   

The world seems to work a lot better on "Brag". 

[crtreedude]

Well - we have our issues with equipment for sure. I suspect we always will - but we filter through people too. One thing, I inspect the tools everytime I am on the fincas. Is this because I know what I am looking at? No, not really, it is because I want everyone to know I notice.

I also get on a horse and ride the fincas. Everyone knows I will be there Friday or Saturday and I will check the work. No litter, no messes, everything needs to be put up and clean.

Hector seems to be able to get people to take care of tools - I wish he wasn't computer phobic because I think his ideas might be pretty interesting.  Sometimes I don't want to know just what he does to achieve what he does... 

With the trees we have here - some of them won't cut unless the chain is really sharp so perhaps that is the reason this isn't one of our top problems.

People take time to sharpen their machetes too.

[Coon]

Personallyand IMO, maybe you should just take away the chainsaws and give them a swede saw or a buck saw and see how they like that.   Bet ya that they won't.  But I bet they'd think twice about sharpening the saw chains or changing them out the next time they get their hands on the chainsaw.  If that doesn't work Then I guess you'd just better buy some axes and have em swing them all day.  Play them out for a whole day or two or the whole week by making them do even harder manual labour.  The next time (if they don't quit before hand) they get to use  the chainsaw they'll appreciate the job it does and how much you get done when the chains are kept sharp.

[rebocardo]

> (22 dollars plus full medical coverage...pretty good for Maine anyway)

Where were you when I needed a job in Maine?    I would call that excellent pay, especially if in central Maine. For that rate I would buy my own chains and bring my own grinder to the job site :-D   The Mexicans in the Atlanta area work for 1/2 (no medical)  of that and will do anything you tell them.

I just finished working with one when I rented a chipper. I got it through to him with sign language that I did not want him feeding it and being pulled in and killed. He fed my hands (I fed the chipper) as quick as possible and we chipped a whole oak in less then an hour just using a six inch chipper.

 

[beenthere]

..........   The Mexicans in the Atlanta area work for 1/2 (no medical)  of that and will do anything you tell them.

And thus the crux of many of our problems and future problems ............(IMO)

[Deadwood]

I'm sorry Rebocardo, I did not make my post very clear. We work for the railroad in Central Maine, not some logging outfit. I am not sure what the logging outfits pay per hour around here, but I would think it would have to be close to that in order for us to pay Maine taxes...the highest in the nation right now!

[rebocardo]

OIC

Last time I checked the Bangor newspaper help wanted ads in 2001 you were lucky to find a $12 an hour job. RR jobs almost sounds union?
 
Yea, a funny thing about taxes. NH next door has one of the lowest tax rates (even taking in account the property tax) and just about the highest median income per household. Plus, always a balanced budget.  Then again, Maine has the safest schools and and it seems just about everyone owns a shotgun. Mass. is known as Taxachusetts, has some of the heaviest and restrictive gun laws, and when the FBI tried to sell "hot" guns in Boston for $50 and then $25 they could not even sell them for that on the black market because the criminals already had them or could get them for free.

I don't know exactly what that means except I guess you can't have everything 

> And thus the crux of many of our problems and future problems ............(IMO) 

Yea, probably, then again if I was not forced out of the construction day labor market, I might not have gotten involved in the tree service business and sawing 

So, I try not to hold it against the Mexicans. Many are just feeding their families and have no prospect of anything else other then starving waiting for them in Mexico. Only a few are lucky enough to get a job at a GM Mexican border plant to work for the eqiv. of $2.50 an hour without bennies and breaks.

Which is probably why they would change a dull chain if you asked them to and you probably would only have to ask once (in translated Spanish).

[Deadwood]

Oh yeah, we're Union because there is no way I would ever work non-Union.

As for the Mexican equasion, I think history has blown that bias out of the water a long time ago. Sure there are a lot of Mexicans moving into the country, but they are taking the jobs that no one else wants...just like the Irish did when they came to New England and started building the railroad lines. No one wanted to do that, or fight fires, or become cops. All those jobs no one wanted back then, but over time they have converted them into respectful jobs. Then there is the Chinese that came over and helped build the railroads out west, or the Swedes and Fins that helped become the great farmers of the mid-west...

I think you see my point. In the long run, these groups came over in waves, and ultimately the nation was better for it. Who knows, but in thirty years when it seems we are being overun from a great influx of Australians, we'll realize it's just part of our history.

[SwampDonkey]

When I was in northern BC, just about all the helicopter pilots that taxied us into the deep bush were from NZ, Australia and Russia. One of the Russian pilots was a bit of a dare devil and it soon caught up with him. Luckily no one got killed, but the trip to the ground wasn't fun non-the-less. He lost his license pronto. Anyway, I figured since we were operating in romote areas none of the 'home boys' wanted the job, so the company had to hire from outside the country. And I must say the guys and yes gals who taxied us to/from the bush were all top notched. When you can toe in to a landing with just the front of the skids on a snow bank or beach log in high tide and land in that swamp with out the tail rotor hitting those little bonsai cedar trees, I'de say you were pretty good. Sometimes they had to do it twice with a 4 man crew (2 men at a time) because those GUTLESS Sky Rangers didn't have the muscle to lift vertically. I liked the 'angry egg', hughes 500, better. Sometimes we had to do some hacking in the swamps to clear a pad, but we and they got'r done. I worked in the bush with Polish, Phillipeano, Mexican you name it, all good workers. My thoughts about the company we were working for aren't all that fond  , but it was all experience.


Me and Arnel rummaging through this pile of residue and waste for wasted wood fibre on a logging site.


Sky Ranger takes off the top of Sommerville Island, BC facing Porcher Canal and the Mysty Fjords National Monument and Wilderness in Alaska

[sawguy21]

You liked that 'angry egg' transmission howling right behind your head??? Off the topic but that 206 paint scheme looks familiar. Was that an NMH or VIH machine?

[SwampDonkey]

V         I       H

[sawguy21]

  Picture must have been taken after 2000. VIH took over most of the a/c and some bases, including the main hangar in Prince George where I worked, after NMH went broke. I was not aircrew so I lost my job.

[twostroke_blood]

The Irish came here legally. Mexicans run across the border under the cover of night, or worse yet others profit from their illegal entry. Yes they do jobs that lazy Americans wont do, but lets not talk about unemployment with a strait face while illegal aliens work, and " American Citizens " lay on the couch collecting welfare checks.

[SwampDonkey]

Picture must have been taken after 2000. VIH took over most of the a/c and some bases, including the main hangar in Prince George where I worked, after NMH went broke. I was not aircrew so I lost my job.

Actually it was 1996.