Whats more valuable... Pine/Maple/Oak??

[mwarrior]

Hi all, just found this forum and figured it would be the best place to get answers for my questions.
We're thinking of planting a 95 acre lot we have with trees, but also looking at the future value.... Maybe either 20 or 30 years from now. What would be more valuable? Pine, Maple, or Oak? Or for a smaller comparison, what would a 25acre crop get? And would that be if it was logged or would that be giving soembody the right to log it?

The property is in Ontario Canada, near Ottawa. Also does anybody have a good source for deer fence to keep the deer out?

Thanks
Gagan

[Chet]

First of welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Probably the first thing to do would be to have someone inspect your site to see what species would be best suited for it, soil type, shade ect.

[mwarrior]

Thanks Chet
The area's definitely good for Pine, and Maple and Oak the planner said could go in as well (getting some conservation authority funding and a 15yr commitment), but they wanted to keep the pine quantities higher than the maple and oak due to the deer population in the area, but that was before deciding on putting up a deer fence. So Maple and Oak are definitely ok for the area (the back end of the property currenty has a huge (approximately 80-90yr old?) Willow tree there as well, along with other (i'm guessing) natural/wild trees that either have regrown or were planted at a minimum of 20+years ago.

We've owned the property for the last 7years and it has been disced/ploughed so its ready for planting come springtime.

Also another thing I've been seeing is the price "per bf"... how does one calculate board feet?

Gagan

[Furby]

One board foot = 144 cubic inches.
A board that is 1" thick, 12" wide and 12" long is one board foot.
Or any combination that = 144 cubic inches.

[Jeff]

Welcome to our Forestry Forum mwarrior. You can also play around with our different volume calculators here.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=toolbox

they can give you an idea about the board feet in a tree or log.

[Ianab]

Hi Mwarrior

One thing to consider is the value of the trees vs the time taken to grow them.

Also the time frame you are looking at getting a return over. Pine trees might be harvested in maybe 40 years  while Oak tree might be 80 years  (depends on the climate in your area)

The maths get complicated when you consider that money from the first crop of trees can be re-invested and the return from that added into the equation.  So even if Oak is worth 3 times as much, the eventual return may be about the same.

I'd suggest spreading your bets and plant areas of each of the suitable trees. Consider locations and soil types and match the trees to their best locations. Once the first commercial harvesting is commenced then the block can give a regular income with regular harvests and replanting.

A very interesting and long term project 

Cheers

Ian

[Ron Wenrich]

One problem with plantations is predicting future demand.  There is no guarantee that oak or maple will be a preferred species at maturity.  10 years ago, you wouldn't even be talking about maple.  Maple prices were depressed.  But, that turned around. 

Value before maturity on hardwoods is not as high and really puts a damper on trying to put on values.  Precomercial thinnings would be for pulp and firewood in the hardwoods.  Not a lot of value in that material.

There are also problems with the establishment and maintaining of hardwood plantations.  I've only seen a handful of ones that I would call successful.

As for pines, the markets seem to be more durable.  There are ups and downs, by they tend to be stable within a range.  They don't have the top end value of hardwoods, but you can grow with a lot more density.  You can get more trees per acre and you have better height growth.  Also, the rotation tends to be shorter.

30 years doesn't seem to be a very realistic number, especially for hardwoods.  My experience has been that 1/4" diameter growth is pretty good.  That would yield about an 8" tree.  You should be looking more in line with a 18-24" tree, minimum.

[floyd]

40 yr rotation on pine is pushing it this far north.
   
Traditionally, hardwoods are used in furniture & fine woodworking.  Softwoods are framinf lumber.

There will be a need for both in the future.

Soils test will be helpful when aforesting.

[crtreedude]

All good information you are getting here. I don't have anything to input regarding these kind of trees - we don't grow them.

But, work with nature, not against it. Make your plans with the least amount of forcing of nature. Much less expensive in the long haul. Remember 30+ years is a long time to fight mother nature.

Small risk become large risk when you are talking a lot of years. Plan accordingly.

just my dos colones

[bcraw98]

I don't understand why, but in my neck of the woods, pine is much more valueable to the landowner than oak.  I'm trying to figure out ways to add value to my existing hardwoods, but for here, I'd definitely plant pine due to the quicker rotation and higher price. I'm trying to figure out ways to add value to my hardwoods. I like my hardwood forests and wouldn't trade um for pine, but on open land around here, it's the way to go IMO. There is probably some sort of price trend report for your area.  Below is a 5 year average for stumpage prices in Texas.

http://txforestservice.tamu.edu/shared/article.asp?DocumentID=930&mc=forest

[bcraw98]

 I just read my post to see if the link worked right and I gather I'm trying to add value to my hardwoods.   

[isawlogs]

does anybody have a good source for deer fence to keep the deer out?

Thanks
Gagan

  Its a lost battle before you start .. deer only need a small hole or dip in the fence to get in .. and they are excellent jumpers ..  Putting a few in the freezer in the fall helps a little . 
 Where about are you .. I am just north of Ottawa .

[rebocardo]

Here in GA I have noticed from looking at tree rings that white oak grows at the most a 1/4" a year, mostly after it is already 10 inches or more. So ... to get at least a ten inch oak would take at least 40 years.

So, I would plant oak for future generations, but, if I planned on making any money I would plan a plantation of pine in there. People will always need toilet paper    I would plant fruit trees too.

[Ron Scott]

If your soil and ecosystem supports the three species as statyed, then you might want to plant all three species for landscape and vegetative diversity as previously stated. Plant approximately 1/3 red pine, 1/3 northern red oak, and 1/3 sugar (hard) maple on sites determined to be best for each.

The vegetative diversity will better benefit the property's other resource values of  wildlife, recreation, aesthetics, etc. as well as timber on the 95 acres.


 

[SwampDonkey]

If your thinking hardwood sawlogs, think 80 years minimum. If your going with pine, it will be at least 65 years for good clear pine. If your thinking white pine, that's real risky as I've seen whole fields of it ruined by weevil and blister rust. We've planted 100's of acres of red pine here, but it's not worth alot untill it's about 14 inch DBH. Some red pine fibre from plantations has been marketed as pulpwood, but in my area it's too far to haul. The deer issue is another thing. A local apple orchard had to install a 12 foot high page wire fence. Then still ended up dropping 5 deer in the apple orchard. As far as future value, pure speculation. Not many years ago hardwood in my area was mostly unmarketable, if only for firewood. As far as logging, if your in that business and have the equipment to work with it's more money in your pocket if you cut it yourself versus selling it on stumpage.  It's very difficult to make an economical harvest in semi-commercial stands of timber. I've seen hardwood that were thinned 30 years ago and they aren't that big at DBH (Beech, sugar maple, yellow birch 4-6 inch DBH, pop 8-10 inch DBH). They would have been 12-15 years old before thinning. It would be better to do a crop tree release and maybe gather some kitchen stove wood from the dropped trees. I saw a forest company try to cut in 1991 softwood thinnings last year. Piece size was too small, cutting rate they were paying the contractor was too low. They were using a processor and forwarder.

[crtreedude]

One of the things you have to take into account if you can is that if everyone decides that someone is great, they tend to all do the same.

In our area for the last few years almost everyone has been planting pineapple.  You drive thorough some sections and it is pineapple as far as the eye can see. Pineapple will grow on the worst soil you have ever seen - very hard on the rivers and streams with all the chemicals though.

Anyway, about 3 years ago a guy was trying to get me to plant pineapple (pineapple is a 3 year crop I believe) but I didn't want to - too many people doing it and besides I like trees.

The price a month or so ago was 40 cents a kilo (think about that the next time you see pineapple in the store for 5 dollars!) and it just dropped to 0.16 cents. 

One thing to watch out for is whether something might be coming along to replace it or that a glut is coming. I have read somethings that lead me to believe that there might not be a great market for pulp in the future due to other sources - I think it was an article about kudzu.  I have no idea, but I don't plant much softwoods. They grow like weeds here but I tend to be careful of that kind of thing.

One key on making money on hardwoods is to reclaim a forest that has been damaged by sawing yourself. Even if a logger won't touch some of the trees - you can make some money if you cut them yourself and harvest them yourself and processes them yourself. Not enough to be rich, but enough to do okay.

Just a quick aside - I read the growth rates of the trees up there in shock. I guess I always knew it, but it is hard for me to imaging waiting 40 years for a pine!

Teak and hardwoods here are a 25 year cycle - some hardwoods 50 year (these are so hard that we use diamond tipped saws on them!) A good number of my trees planted in 2003 (teak) are now about 45 feet tall and about 5 inches in diameter or more. We are getting much, much better growth than normal because we keep up with the mowing and pruning. We mow about ever 3 months (including scalping next to the trees) and we prune once or twice a year. It is a lot of work, but the results are worth it.

The mowing really helps because a lot of the grasses here are nitrogen fixing - cutting them back is free fertilizer!

[routestep]

So mwarrior, what did you plant?

[WDH]

If your value window is only 20 - 30 years, I suspect pine is your best choice since it generally grows faster.  However, that may apply more to the South than to the North.  When thinking about an economic forestry return in the North, 20 -30 years is probably too short of a timeframe, no matter what your crop tree source.  For example, in Brazil, they can and do grow eucalyptus hardwood in 7 - 10 years what you could do in 30.  Remember, it is a global ecomony now.  Fact of life.  If you are not in it for the long term, invest your money in something else like the Stock Market or CD's.  Forestry ain't for the get rich quick syndrome unless you inherit a vast estate.

[rebocardo]

> What would be more valuable? Pine, Maple, or Oak?

None for the short term < 30 years where you live.

Down south plantation pine, but, only because they can harvest it mechanically and turn a toothpick into a warped 2x4 for Home Depot 10,000 trees at a time.

What I have been doing at my house is (trying to) planting magnolia, white oak, and hickory trees for the long term, for future generation. At a maximum of 1/4" per year in good weather, which we have not had, in 20 years I can expect a 5" white oak.  My property in Maine I just let grow naturally as nature has been doing a good job without me for the past 300 years.

For the short term, I am planting fruits trees.

You can have fruit within 2-7 years depending on what you plant. Small apple trees are sort of popular in central Maine going by the orchards I have seen planted. You have fruit to sell and eat in the short term and when the trees die (the small fruit trees usually do not last too long - maybe 30+ years) you have BBQ or some heating wood. I avoid saying cord word because you do not have much wood in these fruit trees because the trunks are short and with branches and everythng a 1/2 a cord would be lucky.

One popular thing in MA/NH was people picking their own apples with the kids in the fall. That might yield a good investment on the short term to recoup the planting costs and taxes. You can always plant long term amoung the apple trees and it is not a bad idea to break up a field anyway.

[Jeff]

So mwarrior, what did you plant?

This fellow registered, asked his question, and within 3 days never came back, even for an answer as far as I can see, over two years ago.

[SwampDonkey]

My property in Maine I just let grow naturally as nature has been doing a good job without me for the past 300 years.

I agree it's hard to improve upon what mother nature provides. Sometimes it's nice to help mother nature nurture certain species, maybe change the composition to favor certain species, and cull out the junk. Maybe by doing something you actually improve things a bit to benefit what's growing there and possibly get some regular revenue to at least pay the taxes or maintain property lines or trails. And probably any improvements depends on a person's perspective. To some, improvements to what mother nature provides isn't possible. Of course there is nothing wrong with doing nothing at all or never hardly visiting the woodlot. But then I can't see myself doing nothing. I'd be asking myself, what do I need it for? Usually owning a woodlot means there is something tangible.

[ibseeker]

The subject grabbed my attention since it's a question that I would have asked when I first started reading this forum which was right after I bought my property. Like him, I was looking for quick and easy answers. I found there are none but there is a lot of good advice in this post. So even if it didn't get to him, it wasn't wasted. It helped me along in this slow process of trying to understand more about forests.