Corn vs. Trees

[Ron Wenrich]

Floyd

From what I've read of a BC study, they said that using cattle for 1 month out of the year didn't have too many detrimental effects.  There was some compaction and some decrease in infiltration rates after 8 years.  They didn't seem to recommend any longer time frame than that.

Are you grazing in Ponderosa pine stands?  When I worked in Oregon, between Klamath Falls and Medford, it seemed like the only place that there was any grazing was in those types of stands.

BlaBla

All the studies seem to indicate that growing quality hardwoods and cattle grazing are not compatable for any sustained period.  Those that do say anything about grazing always go back to saying a stand of poor quality wood. 

I don't see any reason to put cattle into a poor quality stand.  It should be converted over to a high quality stand, and that would mean you need good reproduction.  You won't get that with livestock in the stand.

One report talked about livestock not causing soil compaction, but then stated it was sheep.  I can see sheep being a much better option than cattle.  Although, if they are anything like goats, there won't be much left.

I think if you want to get into agroforestry, I would go more on the mushroom and herbal alternatives.  Shitake and morels have a good market value.  Ginseng will probably give you more money than timber.  If you could get black truffles, then there's another high value crop. 

I think any grazing considerations have to be looked at pretty hard.  Its not just a matter of letting the livestock run free.

[Robert R]

I have far more experience with sheep than cows.  Sheep are nothing like goats.  If they have grass, they will not debark your trees or eat the saplings.  In fact, sheep are often used in maintaining orchards of apple and peach trees around here and I imagine would work well in a plantation type atmosphere of almost any there.  The sheep drawback would be in using them in a more natural woodland.  The burrs and sticktights in a wild timber setting would destroy the marketable wool crop from your sheep project but if you had planted walnuts or maples or cottonwoods or whatever and it ws relatively clean of briars and brambles, sheep will do an excellent job of maintaining the grounds and provide income in the interim until the tree crop is ready.  Free range hens do well also in this setting providing you have good predator control fence and not a large bird of prey population.  That predator fence or an LGD is a must with the sheep flock as well.

[floyd]

Ron, K Falls caddy corner to Union County. Not alot of PP in study area. Mostly true firs & doug fir. Grazing season from May til snow flies...Oct or Nov. This study was geared towards ranchers more interested in forage vs timber production. Most of this ground is 2nd growth. Scattered stands surrounded by range. K Falls also higher elevation than study area. OSU was trying to help ranchers understand multiple use(NOT abuse) can help the bottom line of the ranch. Also trying to help them understand clear cut & conversion to range not necessary for forage production.

PP is fire species, meaning it survives intermittant(sp?) fires that keep brush...& some reprod at bay. Makes for large, scattered overstory with plenty of sunlight hitting forest floor so grass, forbs ,etc can survive. Grazing also helps to promote forage growth. An acre of mature PP may only contain 20 stems but trees will be 150'+ & say 25-40"DBH, & any where from 100-200yr old. Selective harvest is norm in these stands. Maybe remove 50% of merchanable volume per entry with 100 yr rotation.

By opening up these scattered stands of fir sunlight gets to forest floor allowing grass to grow.

Sheep need to be kept moving when in forest situation. That is why there is always a herder with them & he has a wagon. Constantly moving camp.

[crtreedude]

Our use of cattle is by using them when they are small and we used them between the trees which are planted on a 3.5 meter grid. We have a lot of grass between the trees. We don't use any cattle until the trees are higher than 15 feet. We have observed no ill effects. But, we have very good soil. You do have to be careful - too soon and the younger cows can damage the trees. Also, if the soil is marginal, you don't want to use cattle.

We use cattle as a help to keep ahead of the grass.

[SwampDonkey]

I have to go with Ron W here, as he explained it. I know one farmer that ran his cattle freely in his mixed woods and within a couple of years the trees were dead. From first glance at the woods, you'de have thought it was burnt by a wildfire in spring. That happens alot around here, but no, the cattle tore the ground up and killed the feeder roots and  alot of things Ron mentioned. I'de never run cattle in my woods. Nor would I burn my good pasture land every spring, runs the ground out and promotes weeds while killing the good feed. Now if you just have 3 or 4 cows, that's not a big impact on 50 acres for example. But I've still noticed under 'cow shades' you'll end up with roots of your spruce up on top of the ground because the cattle tramped it up. And your spruce will have the lovely red or butt rot.