Author Topic: Drying Amboyna Burl (Read 6719 times)

Chairman · « **on:** October 21, 2005, 07:17:32 pm »

I am a chairmaker in Sarasota, FL. I flew out to CA earlier this week and purchased a 900 pound Amboyna burl and then had it milled on a wood miser band saw to 8/4 slabs. The dimension of most of the slabs is about 34"x 24". I cut it across the pins to maximize the beauty of this rare and valuable wood. After cutting I reassembled the burl into a solid piece and have had it banded in preparation for shipment back to FL.

I am looking for a plan to safely dry this wood in the minimum amount of time. My plan right now for the near term is to put brown paper between the layers to wick away moisture for the first few weeks. The paper will be changed out daily. Immediately following that I plan on sticking it and putting the slabs in a low temperature dehumidified chamber I've built. My normal ambient humidity in my shop is between 60 and 80% moisture content. In my home built box with the dehumidifier on the ambient moisture is around 30% and the temp is about 110. I do not plan on putting sealers of any kind on the slabs. The bark is intact around all slab edges. I have three questions:
1.) Have I already made a mistake in my approach, ie is it too aggressive? If so what would you suggest as a better way of doing the initial drying of this burl?
2.) Once I remove the first two thirds of the moisture and get it down to about 20% what should I do next to get to harder moisture out? My goal is 7% with a minimum of checking and cracking. Obviously letting air dry for several years might be preferrable but this is a commission piece and I would really like to get it done in the next 6 months to a year max.
3.) Might vacuum drying be an answer and should I consider stabilization before doing anything else.

My website is www.parkerconverse.com for anyone who wants to look at my work. When finished this rocking chair will sell for $25,000. I am anxious to protect my clients substantial deposit which would include not turning the Amboyna to kindling in the drying process. Any advice or leads to more knowledgeable people would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Parker

old3dogg · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2005, 07:20:07 pm »

Vac dry it.

Chairman · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2005, 07:30:53 pm »

Mr. Old Dogg:
Your response employs an enviable economy of words. You must understand, however, that my knowledge is that of a stump regarding the processing of wood. With the simple instruction to VAC dry I am likely to pull out the shop vac and give the slabs a good cleaning. Specifics would be helpful. What type of vacuum chamber, how long, what atmosphere, what temp? Probably more important would be a reference to a facility or person who provides vacuum drying services and preferrably has experience with valuable burls. Can you recommend anyone?

crtreedude · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2005, 07:34:31 pm »

Nothing to add about how to get it done, but you do beautiful work. I would be afraid to sit in one though!

old3dogg · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2005, 07:37:49 pm »

Den will be here in a day or two to tell you all about vac drying!!!!

It isnt "Mr. old3dogg". Its Mike.

I dont dry anymore. Gave it up for something better.

Hot water platen type vacuum dryers work the best.

Tom · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:03:04 pm »

Welcome to the Forum, Parker.

The moderator of this board Dennis Socling, is into vacuum kilns real heavy. He designs and builds kilns and is an encylopedia of information. His company website is at
http://www.pcspecialties.com/

Dennis has help guys design and build vacuum kilns and even helped a company in my hometown find a vacuum kiln operation that would get them over the hump till they could make a decision on buying a kiln.

If you need to contact him immediately, his website has a contact button. He shows up here regulary though.

Chairman · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:09:19 pm »

Tom, Mike and the other gentleman:
Thanks for your feedback. Coincidentally I got in touch with Dennis's company today and spoke with his number 2 guy there. They seem generally quite knowledgeable but didn't have experience with Amboyna. When I told him the value of the wood he was fairly certain that they wouldn't be interested in attempting it due to the liability but maybe Dennis can stear me towards someone else.
Parker

old3dogg · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:23:14 pm »

Vac drying allows one to control the drying process better. It allows you to dry at a lower temp and gives you a better control of how fast you dry. Hot water plates under a vacuum gives you more control of how fast you evaporate water from the wood. It is a really simple process. All you have to do is find the right evaporation rate to what wood you want to dry. The only wood that I know of that wont dry from green is White Oak. White Oak must be pre-dried first. Well, 4/4 WO is pretty easy to dry in a vac kiln but anything heavier gets hard. It must be predried first.

I have never dried the wood that you are trying to dry but I am sure that there is a way.

Check out the link that Tom gave you and read more into it. Vac drying is the way to go for thick, hard to dry species.

Chairman · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:32:39 pm »

Mike:
I am sure that a vacuum kiln will do the job. The big question is of course cracks and other degradation. Also, being 8/4 stock adds to the time required. It doesn't sound like I will be doing any damage doing an initial dryout at low temps in my dehumidifier chamber. One other thing I am trying to find out more about is glycol or polymer based stabilization. As I understand these techniques if one of those is done first then I might be able to dry it much faster in higher temps without damaging the wood. Once the wood is impregnated with either of these substances, however, glues and finishes are somewhat limited. The good part is that the wood varies very little in dimension over time once either of these elements are introduced at a cellular level. So much to learn and so little time.
Parker

old3dogg · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:46:03 pm »

If done right, you will not see cracks or degrade when vacuum drying.

Sorry. But i know nothing about glycol or polymer as far as drying goes.

If done right you can dry fast at very low temps under a vacuum. How fast do you want to go?

old3dogg · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:50:41 pm »

By the way.
I checked out your site. I can see the concern in wanting not to destroy your product in the drying process!

Nice work!

Chairman · « **Reply #11 on:** October 21, 2005, 08:53:36 pm »

If I had my way I'd start up the saw and the jointer tomorrow. I know that's not realistic but it would be nice if I could find a way to get the wood dry withing three months as opposed to 2 years.

old3dogg · « **Reply #12 on:** October 21, 2005, 09:03:11 pm »

Im sure Den could find a way to dry your wood in a few weeks.

I could dry 12/4 Red Oak in 16 days. This was from 70% BMC! And this was using vac kilns from the "Fred Flintstone" days of vac drying!

Compare Amboyna to a North American hard wood for me. What species does it compare to?

Jason_WI · « **Reply #13 on:** October 21, 2005, 09:13:19 pm »

I had to look up Amboyna to see what the heck it looked like.

http://www.gilmerwood.com/photo%20html/Amboyna_burl_photo.htm

Too busy of a grain and too $$$ for my blood.

Jason

old3dogg · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2005, 09:19:37 pm »

$$$$ Thats where its at. Did you check out this guys site? Really nice looking stuff.

Seems he thinks he could make a lot more if he could find a way to dry the wood faster.

I think he can.

serg · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2005, 01:27:10 am »

Hello!
I looked yours on your site. Beautiful and valuable work!
I can dry this tree so:
Vacuum drying technology is attractive, first and foremost because it presents a realistic opportunity to significantly decreasedrying time while preserving the quality of the wood, and often imroving it. It is known that in this regard, the capabilities of conventional drying are exhausted. More than one kind vacuum drying technology exists today. But first, a little bit about the vacuum drying process from physics' point of view.
Creating of vacuum in an environment where the drying process takes place, dramatically changes physical characteristics of heat and matter exchange processes that occur durin drying. The principal parameter that defines depth of the vacuum is the pressure in the drying environment; it is this parameter that determines the conditions and processes that occur there. The most important effect of lowering the pressure in the environment is lowering of the boiling point of water and temperature of saturated steam. The main processes that determine the kinetics of wood drying and connected with movement of moisture in liquid or steam from inside the material, and with diffusion of steam into the surrounding environment.
When part of steam/air mixture is removed and pressure is lowered, the number of molecules is decreases and their free movement increases. In a vacuum, it is significantly greater than the average microcapillary size, whose radius is less then 10-15cm. In this case, the character of molecular movement in the lumber pores changes fundamentally; effusion phenomenon occurs (Knudsen Flow). Density of the flow increases dozens of times. Additionally, with temperature of the lumber tissue being higher than boiling point with the given pressure, an excess steam pressure inside the material occurs, which significantly speeds up movement of moisture from the center to the surface of the wood. Lowering of pressure in the drying environment by 12 times speeds up the moisture movement by 4.7 times.
The above mentioned occurances during drying in a vacuum allow to achieve a certain effect when drying timber materials, compared to traditional drying. Energetic effectiveness of the process however, depends on supply of heat to the material and coducting the optimal drying mode. It is to these circumstances that we attribute creation of wide array of vacuum wood drying methods, vacuum technologies and equipment to implement them. Noteworthy is the fact that the advantages which this technology presents to the woodworking industry require complex and intricate equipment including: hermetically sealed and pressure resustant autoclave, heates which sometimes use High Frequency and Super (Ultra) High Frequency Current generators, vacuum pumps, circulation equipment, steam condensation and condensation removal systems. Practicability of using this drying system with high structural complexity is determined by a technoeconimical calculation. But simplification and lowering of equipment costs is relevant both to the producer and the consumer. For this very season we would like to call your attention to the results of an interesting development executed by the Russian company "Vacuum Plus". Developers of this kiln determined the following goals:

- Simplify constuction of the equipment and lumer drying technology.
- Achieve high quality of lumber drying.

The drying chamber consists of a cylindrical body (sizes depend on volume of the load) with an airlock. Length of the stack loaded into the chamber is 6300mm. The stack is located on a cart which is moved on guide tracks when loading and unloading the chamber. The lumber is placed on 25mm thick, 30-40mm wide with spacing, interliners calibrated according to thickness. Because of the curvilinear guides along the cart, the cross-section of the stack is not rectangular. Instead, it mimics the shape of the cylinder surface. Thus the most useful capacity possible is achieved.
Steaming, drying, heat and moisture treatment, and cooling modes are obtained emperically through the process of experimental refinement on an industrial installation. The result is a universal shedule for different breeds from initial moisture of 100% to final 5.0-6.0%, including oak of 75mm, 52mm, 32mm, walnut of 90mm thickness and others. Drying occurs on the set mode.
Developers note simplicity of maintenance of the equipment, which does not require constant presence of the operator. In the event of a power outage, the kiln automatically resumes the set operation mode when power is recoverd.
One of the advantages of this drying method, as mentioned above, is the high quality of the finished dry wood. When drying oak, moisture dispersion on the stack is 1.5%, differential for thickness of the lumber 0.5-1.0%. Drying times: hardwood leafed breeds 7-18 days, coniferous breeds 3-15 days, depending on thickness and initial moisture of 5-7%.
It seems strange at first glance to use natural circulation of the environment in the chamber, which of course lowers the intensity of the heat supply to the stack. Howeever, when treating slow-drying wood, the speed of moisture and heat exchange processes on the surface should correspond to the speed of internal moisture and heat movement. Our use of natural conductivity is one of the reasons for the high quality of drying oak and other lumber difficult in drying. The cost of this kiln is much lower than its counterparts abroad!

Additioanl dryer Information:
- Oak 60 mm thick from initial moisture of 65% dries to residual moisture of 4-5% in 18-20 days.
- Oak 60 mm thick from initial moisture of 35% dries to residual moisture of 4-5% in 10-12 days.
- Oak 25 mm thick from initial moisture of 65% dries to residual moisture of 4-5% in 9-10 days.
- Oak 25 mm thick from initial moisture of 35% dries to residual moisture of 4-5% in 7-8 days.
- Pine 55 mm thick from initial moisture of 65% dries to residual moisture of 5-6% in 8 days.
- Pine 55 mm thick from initial moisture of 35% dries to residual moisture of 5-6% in 6 days.
Our vacuum drying kiln provides 100% lumber drying of any breed (including exotic breeds) with moisture differential 0.5% for board thickness, no more than 0.9% for board length, and up to 1% for the stack.
E-mail: info@vacuums.ru

Sergey

Chairman · « **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2005, 06:56:32 am »

Serge:
Thanks for your response. I have no doubt that vacuum will work but I guess my question would be if you have any experience in drying this particular species? What degradation might I expect? What preparation of the wood in advance would you suggest? What would you charge? What if any warranty would you be willing to offer? Go to my website and contact me through email there and we can have a conversation. I would post my email on the forum but I don't need anymore spam.
Thanks,
Parker

Chairman · « **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2005, 07:01:05 am »

Mike:
To answer your question. Amboyna burl comes from the Narra tree, a very dense tropical hardwood. It is very close to Paduk, Bloodwood and Satine. I doubt it would float it's so dense. That said it also handles beautifully. I ran some through the planer at the wood dealers with standard steel blades and it cut is sweetly with no tearout.
Parker

Den Socling · « **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2005, 09:10:04 am »

Hi Parker,

Vacuum drying can be controlled perfectly if you can set the vapor pressure of the water in the wood and then precisely control the chamber pressure. You can make water vaporize from inside the wood. But this doesn't insure quality. A vac kiln can certainly cause cracks. You have to add humidity control for difficult to dry wood.

Our kilns can minimize humidity gradient. This keeps the outside of the wood wet while pressure gradient moves water from inside. We don't do any conditioning after drying but I have seen samples with higher MC in the shell than at the core.

You will want to be careful with DH. DH takes water from the surface like any other conventional kiln.

Figured red beech from New Zealand (a Nothofagus) was the most difficult wood that I have ever dried. A guy from Penn State was here last summer and he said that, if he were to design a difficult-to-dry wood, it would have the characteristics of red beech. I have a 'special' schedule for such wood and that is what your pieces would get. Drying time is around 18 days.

I might dry your wood but 18 days is a lot of time for our R&D kiln. I don't know if I can schedule that much.

Hey Mike,

Wait 'til you see my office. White oak paneling. Vacuum dried with no predrying. Knots and all of the pretty figure around the knots were left in.

Den

Den Socling · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2005, 10:40:36 am »

If I have the 'picture thing' straight, there should be a picture of a window in my office made with figured red beech.

And this is my office in white oak. What do you think, Mike? Is WO ugly?

Den Socling · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2005, 11:01:32 am »

Mike,
This picture doesn't do justice to the beauty of the wood but you can get an idea.
Den

serg · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2005, 11:04:13 am »

The American friends!
I am ready to give you test drying of any wood free-of-charge. Delivery to Latvia.
There the drying complex vacuum drying chambers works.
Practice, quality the best dialogue with all nations of the world.
The best regards Sergey.

Den Socling · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2005, 11:42:13 am »

Sergey,

Nothing personal but, if somebody sent a piece of wood worth US$25,000 to Latvia, even with Latvia independent of Russia, would that wood ever be seen again?

Den

old3dogg · « **Reply #23 on:** October 22, 2005, 11:55:05 am »

That looks good Den. I will have to make a "company" trip down there some day and check it out!

I must say that I like the Red Beech better than the WO.

serg · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2005, 01:05:06 pm »

Well Den..
I shall buy under contract 2 М3 dearly woods and I shall dry in Latvia.
2 М3 I shall give these in USA who quality of vacuum drying will wish to look.
Write to me by private(individual) e-mail where it is possible to buy a dear(an expensive) wood?
I up to the end have not understood your question? I guess about what your question.
Sergey.

Den Socling · « **Reply #25 on:** October 22, 2005, 01:39:39 pm »

Sergey,

Sorry but I made a bad joke. From business associates, I hear that it is very difficult to do business with Russian companies because of the lawlessness in many areas. Most people would be very concerned about shipping expensive wood to former republics. Similarly, everybody says 'watch the Chinese as they are experts at reverse engineering'. Therefore, I'm not shipping any vac kilns to China.

Den

serg · « **Reply #26 on:** October 23, 2005, 01:49:54 am »

Den, I the participant of the American forum, therefore in Russia is changes in democracy and freedom!
In Russia there are changes in economic freedom.
Example of a family affair on manufacture of a floor from an oak.
The price of 10 vacuum drying chambers on 12 М3 loadings of a board of an oak thickness of 32 mm-------------284 000.00 $
The price of machine tools, the tool for manufacture of a floor from an oak-------------100 000.00 $
Total:-------------384 000.00 $
For 1 month it is possible to dry up 240 М3 an oak thickness of 32 mm to make 7 200 М2 a floor thickness of 27 mm, humidity of 6 %.
1 М3 = 30М2
Purchase of a crude oak at the price of 400.00 $ 1М3 х 240 =--------------96 000.00 $
The automobile, delivery--------------5 000.00 $
Payment--------------10 000.00 $
Payment of the electric power---------------4 000.00 $
Amortization of machine tools, taxes, rent, other charges---------------40 000.00 $
Total for 1 month--------------155.000.00 $
The price 1М2 a floor from an oak thickness of 27 mm humidity of 6 % = 40.00 $ in Moscow
7 200 М2 х 40.00 $ = 288 000.00 $
288 000.00 $-155 000.00 $ =133 000.00 $
For 1 year 133 000.00 $ х12 = 1 596 000.00 $
96 000.00 $ to give to children's fund on charity.
Result: 1 5000 000.00 $.

Den. In calculations I could make a mistake, but it does not mean that in Russia there are no changes.
Time of mistrust and many problems from one year per one year, leaves in the past!
Moscow firm GLOBAL EDGE for a long time works with the American firms on sale of the American machine tools in Russia, it is excellent(different).
October, 25 in Moscow the exhibition on work with a wood begins. Has arrived 70 firms of the world, including from America.
Time of changes means has come.
The best regards. Sergey.

Chairman · « **Reply #27 on:** October 23, 2005, 04:02:20 pm »

Den:
Thanks for getting involved in the discussion. Nice office trim by the way. I have sent you an email with two photos of the wood. Hope I can talk you into getting involved.

Serg:
Thanks again for your offer of drying in Latvia but without a long standing business relationship I would be very nervous sending my client's wood so far into a country in which I would have little control over the custody of the wood.
Parker

serg · « **Reply #28 on:** October 24, 2005, 12:18:06 am »

Hello!
Thank for trust!
I think as to receive in Moscow or Latvia your preparations.
50х50х100 mm
60х60х100 mm
70х70х100 mm
90х90х100 mm
I shall dry at once all in one vacuum chamber.
Guarantee of 100 %
It is ready to pay all charges.
Sergey.

rerednaw · « **Reply #29 on:** October 25, 2005, 02:25:54 am »

Quote from: Den Socling on October 22, 2005, 09:10:04 am

Vacuum drying can be controlled perfectly if you can set the vapor pressure of the water in the wood and then precisely control the chamber pressure. You can make water vaporize from inside the wood. But this doesn't insure quality. A vac kiln can certainly cause cracks. You have to add humidity control for difficult to dry wood.

By the way:
1. Serg kiln have MANUAL chamber pressure control (e.g. you go to kiln, look at presure manometer, think a lot and power on or power off vacuum pump).
2. As i understand, Den set the vapor pressure in wood by setting PRECISELY temperature of water in plates. Serg kiln kontrol temperature in kiln chamber (between 2 wood boards).
3. Serg kiln dont have any humiduty kontol. All what you can do with humiduty it is stop remove water from kiln. but Serg kiln dont give you any information about humiduty level in chamber.
simplity is good ... ?

To Serg: Maybe better way is it install you kiln in USA and alll who want test you kiln ? transport cost to USA no more then 2000$ i think and on the forum a lot of people who get you "3 squares of workshop" for you eksperiments for free.

rerednaw · « **Reply #30 on:** October 25, 2005, 08:46:28 am »

“The price of 10 vacuum drying chambers on 12 М3 loadings of a board of an oak thickness of 32 mm-------------284 000.00 $ For 1 month it is possible to dry up 240 М3 an oak thickness of 32 mm to make 7 200 М2 a floor thickness of 27 mm, humidity of 6 %. 1 М3 = 30М2”

1. As one of you customer tould me, he dry 32 mm oak from green to 6% - 18 days. So, I think it is 200m3 in mounth.
2. 1 m3 is not 30m2 of floor! From 200m3 you get 10416 pcs of boards 100x32x6000mm, and after planning you will have not 100mm wide but only 88mm. 10416 boards = 5499 m2 of floor (or 240 m3 is 6600 m2).

“Amortization of machine tools, taxes, rent, other charges---------------40 000.00 $”

Only one tax NDS (Value added tax in USA) is 18%. So for 7200m2x40$ you pay 52000$ only for one tax! What about another taxes ?

“The price 1М2 a floor from an oak thickness of 27 mm humidity of 6 % = 40.00 $ in Moscow”

Yeah! 40.00$ is price for first class floor, what about 2 and 3 class ? Or we can get 240m3 first class floor from you kiln ?!

“Result: 1 5000 000.00 $.@”

Result: I think by the same unprecisely way you calculate electric power, payment for rent and other things.. Simplity is good ?

rerednaw · « **Reply #31 on:** October 25, 2005, 08:48:33 am »

Quote from: serg on October 24, 2005, 12:18:06 am

I think as to receive in Moscow or Latvia your preparations.
50х50х100 mm
60х60х100 mm
70х70х100 mm
90х90х100 mm

Why 50x50x100mm but not 50x50x6000mm ? Another "simply" trick ? I think Den know answer.

Den Socling · « **Reply #32 on:** November 03, 2005, 01:04:13 pm »

That's a slice of this burl.

It's now gently drying.

GaS · « **Reply #33 on:** November 03, 2005, 06:47:21 pm »

^^ thats GaS saying 'boy this stuff is heavier than it looks!!!'

pasbuild · « **Reply #34 on:** November 03, 2005, 07:03:13 pm »

Den when can we expect the finished product pics?

Den Socling · « **Reply #35 on:** November 03, 2005, 07:11:50 pm »

We could probably dry it in a couple days but it's so darn expensive that I'll give it a couple weeks. This is a scary situation. It's like 'live' TV. The beauty won't come out until Parker gets it. It just better not have any new cracks. It already had cracks in the light colored areas. I don't want them to get any deeper.

Jason_WI · « **Reply #36 on:** November 04, 2005, 11:38:11 pm »

looks expensive

I see they weren't sent to Lativia

Jason

serg · « **Reply #37 on:** November 05, 2005, 01:27:49 am »

Hello friends!
In Russia the Karelian birch difficultly dries. We dry this wood in the vacuum drying chamber.
Look products from this wood.

http://karbel.h1.ru/karbel/vazes.htm
Sergey.

serg · « **Reply #38 on:** November 12, 2005, 08:02:50 am »

I have already dried up! That you asked all that up to humidity of 5.5 %!

serg · « **Reply #39 on:** November 12, 2005, 08:42:26 am »

Thickness of a board of 26 mm. Trading names: Macassar, Ebony, Marble Wood. The nucleus black, very firm, but fragile, is spotted with brown or crimson strips. Wood with a fine homogeneous structure and density in a dry condition about 850 kg / m ³. I have dried up it(him) up to residual humidity of 5.0 %.

Sergey.

Chairman · « **Reply #40 on:** November 12, 2005, 07:09:14 pm »

Just wanted to thank you all for your input on drying my burl. At this point I don't feel as though I could have found two more knowledgeable people than Dennis and Garrett Socling. Garrett sent me a few photos after a week in the "chamber" and the degrade appears to be non existent or minimal at best. Gotta love this technology. I can't wait to see the finished product. If it holds together (and I expect it will) this process will stand as a real milestone in drying technology. Not that I know much about drying but after talking to at least a dozen experts and getting an equal number of conflicting opinions, if we are successful, this will effectively set some new standards in the drying world. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use traditional methods of air drying for several years then kiln drying for several months if vacuum drying can be so effective with such quick turnaround. Thanks again Dennis.
Parker

Den Socling · « **Reply #41 on:** November 12, 2005, 08:26:03 pm »

Thank you very much for your comments, Parker.

With my Wagner moisture meter set to high density, I got readings in the teens in some areas of the burl when we checked it. With MC this low, we should be safe but I'll be happy when it's out, dry and without cracks. It's a scary piece of wood.

dundee · « **Reply #42 on:** November 13, 2005, 04:33:54 pm »

Quote from: Chairman on November 12, 2005, 07:09:14 pm

Just wanted to thank you all for your input on drying my burl. At this point I don't feel as though I could have found two more knowledgeable people than Dennis and Garrett Socling. Garrett sent me a few photos after a week in the "chamber" and the degrade appears to be non existent or minimal at best. Gotta love this technology. I can't wait to see the finished product. If it holds together (and I expect it will) this process will stand as a real milestone in drying technology. Not that I know much about drying but after talking to at least a dozen experts and getting an equal number of conflicting opinions, if we are successful, this will effectively set some new standards in the drying world. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use traditional methods of air drying for several years then kiln drying for several months if vacuum drying can be so effective with such quick turnaround. Thanks again Dennis.
Parker

No one in New Zealand could dry New Zealand RED BEECH----NO ONE!, Even our New Zealand Forest Research Institute Scientists, these guys wrote volumes of books as to how they thought the millers should approach kiln drying this species--ALL FAILED! Then a small parcel of the species was shipped to the Soclings for trialing, Den and Garrett persevererd, in the finish they found the answer, Den was saying, he has never --"ever seen such a difficult species to dry", so, I understand what you are conveying Parker

Rgds
Richards
New Zealand

Den Socling · « **Reply #43 on:** November 14, 2005, 11:40:00 am »

You really have me worried now! Thinking of how much Red Beech I blew up before I figured out how to dry it.

The burl is running under the 'Red Beech' schedule and I'll be sooooooo glad when it's out. Why do I get myself into these predicaments?

serg · « **Reply #44 on:** November 16, 2005, 12:27:53 pm »

Den hi!
In Russia speak Amboyna Burl it is dried better than Macassar. I have bought this матерал and have put in a vacuum dryer, the Beech thickness of 52 mm humidity of 23 %, the Oak thickness of 40 mm, humidity of 19 %, Amboyna Burl thickness of 40 mm, humidity of 12 %, Macassar humidity of 23 % there laid.. Dried 12 days all material has dried up up to humidity 5 .0 - 5.8 %!!? To me have told that Macassar in drying is not dried, I have made it with other breeds and different thickness, humidity of a tree.
What you think on complexity of drying Amboyna Burl or Macassar in one bookmark with other breeds of a tree with different humidity and thickness, it is possible to dry?

Sergey.

Den Socling · « **Reply #45 on:** November 16, 2005, 03:12:08 pm »

Sergey,

I loaded cherry and hickory with the amboyna to fill the chamber.

Den

serg · « **Reply #46 on:** November 17, 2005, 02:49:06 am »

Den, at me not enough time was. The vacuum dryer was released (exempted.) I have taken all wood that has written and have put in one chamber with different humidity and thickness. In all boards there was only a coherent moisture.
I did (made) the diagram, the messenger water heated 45 гр 3 days of the Board with the greater gave a moisture, boards with smaller took a moisture. Has created superfluous pressure of 2 atmospheres. The connected water has come in a stage of balance of all boards. Has then created vacuum of a mercury column of 100 mm there was a process of boiling in all boards simultaneously, the temperature of boiling is equal below 45 грС.
So can dry everyone with excellent (different) quality and all breeds of a tree.

Sergey.

Den Socling · « **Reply #47 on:** November 17, 2005, 08:05:07 am »

Sergey,

100 mm is about as low as you can go with your chamber because you need enough gas for convection. The boiling point of water at 100 mm is 52'C. With American wood, you might start 25 mm maple at 52 and not see a problem other than excessive warp but, if you started oak at 52'C, you would end up with many cracks.

Den

serg · « **Reply #48 on:** November 17, 2005, 08:52:28 am »

Den, you are right. To give boiling a moisture free these are cracks, deformations. I give boiling the messenger of water from 25 % of-30 %, depends on density of a tree. I shall not write in mm of a mercury column. 0.095 residual pressure, temperature of boiling are lower 45 С. Thus boards heated up at 45 С, slowly begin to boil at a raising of vacuum 0.095. Pairs is present from the beginning of drying before the end of drying. Humidifying by water is not required. High quality turns out. I speak about that that the vacuum dryer can do(make) difficult work give excellent(different) quality. And diagrams of drying it is a lot of technologies behind vacuum drying the future.
It has proved Den in America.
Sergey.

Den Socling · « **Reply #49 on:** December 18, 2005, 10:15:12 am »

Questions about the walnut burl from our new member reminded me that I never finished this thread. I finally got that burl dry. I spent 24 days. Everytime I would try to put any heat to it, I would start to get little cracks in the twisted grain.

I sanded and wetted this spot. Strange looking stuff.

I sent Parker samples to see if he considered it dry. He did and he turned this MC sample into a clock. One of these days, I'll post the rocking chair pics.

serg · « **Reply #50 on:** December 18, 2005, 11:58:01 am »

DEN hi!
I congratulate you! Vacuum drying of a tree of exotic breeds - gives new era in drying business.

Speed of drying or quality? I have chosen quality of drying, you have confirmed it!
I congratulate All with Christmas!
The best regards.
Sergey.

333_okh · « **Reply #51 on:** December 20, 2005, 05:32:19 pm »

I took a look just to see if your experience would help on the burl. I think it will sit for a few years then get cut into smaller pieces for use. When I do that I will rough plane the outsides and go for a warmer drying.

Den Socling · « **Reply #52 on:** December 20, 2005, 05:58:00 pm »

I think you said you had pieces 4 to 6 inches thick. You won't believe how well that much twisted grain can lock up water. In the meantime, your few years of air drying will be hard to control. If the outside gets too dry, that can really seal the water inside. If you have an idea of what sizes you are going to want, maybe you should rough it out now.