swing mill clarification questions

[lawyer_sawyer]

well after trying to get through all of the posts about swing mills and peterson and lucas on here a couple of things have confused me.  I thought I had it but my newbie status shines through yet again.

Lucas seems to take great pride in sawing with the taper.  This in and of itself is confusing to me.  I dont understand why this is truly important....unless it has to do with the actual cutting of the grain of the wood.  Is there a value of being able to cut so that you do not have growth rings run out on the bottom side of your board.  not sure if that makes sense.  ...

I guess if people could please explain the value of cutting with the taper that would be great.  I would really like to hear from everybody because it doesn't make sense to me.

the second thing that confuses me about swing mills and this could go for any brand I think.  They make good claims of being able to be set up anywhere.  I have seen pictures of hillsides, parking lots, two tracks and one member discussed setting up in a creek (that was a great story thank you Andy)  I also see the track being shimmed up on just blocks of wood or a stump or antying readily available. 

Does just throwing a block of wood under a corner make a stable track to saw on.  Is there more to this than just getting the track high enough or level enough.  How stable does the track have to be to saw....I am assuming no rocking action but is as long as it is level enough.  Could the people with experience maybe explain to me what they would think a good or bad setup would be and what they would feel comfortable with.

I am sorry this post sounds so confusing.  It is me....I am confused.  I keep rereading some things and these two really throw me the most.

Thanks for all the great info here.

[Ianab]

Does just throwing a block of wood under a corner make a stable track to saw on.  Is there more to this than just getting the track high enough or level enough.  How stable does the track have to be to saw....I am assuming no rocking action but is as long as it is level enough.

With the Lucas or the Peterson ATS the rails are supported by adjustable stands, this does make it easier to adjust for uneven ground. I have a WPF so the rails are usually on the ground / blocks

When I set up on uneven ground I usually just support the mill on 'rounds' or blocks cut to the right height, and some thinner offcuts as shims to line it up exactly. Even on 'level' ground you still have to shim it in some places, unless you are on a tennis court or similar. Most important is that the rails are Parrallel and straight.  I usually try and support them in 4 places along their length otherwise they will bow a little in the middle as you saw. Crouch down on the downhill side and sight along the 2 rails by eye. If they are out of line it's easy to spot and adjust the shims. If the rails are not pretty near right then the carriage will only run on 3 of its wheels and rock / derail. I have had to block a rail up 18" off the ground but it worked fine. Another time I actually cut a notch in the stump that the log came from and sat the rail there. The rails do not need to be the same height (within reason). You can work with the rails running up hill a little, but it's more work and hassle sawing (the mill wants to run away all the time.)
Generally if you block the mill up solid enough that you cant push things over it's fine. There is very little force on the rails apart from the weight of the mill.  You are pushing the sawhead with about 10lb of force (not much) and sideways force when cutting horizontal is not great.

I'd say the sawing with taper might be usefull in some situations. It will let you maximise the clear boards from the outside of the log, then saw out a wedge of low grade in the centre as waste, and saw the bottom 1/2 parrallel to the lower taper. Is it worth doing that? Usually not. But I guess it's handy if you want to. Usually I set up parrallel to the pith and just take the taper out in slabs.

Cheers

Ian

[NZJake]

Gidday mate,

I thought I might mention that the WPF now comes standard with adjustable supports so you don't really need shims, like Ian said if the two tracks look parallel to each other by eye then most cases its good enough.

The taper thing? It does have advantages, where the mill is to be set up on a big log, where the log is resting on a taper slightly and can not be moved. This is where adjustabillity comes in to play, being able to adjust the tracks to run parallel to the 'centre' of the log has advantages in this case. basicly this aleviates the need for big blocks to chock up a mill like the WPF for instance. In saying that, if you are using big blocks to chock up the mill you most likely will need two guys to help push the mill up the slope.

I don't feel cutting to grain is advantageous as it would seem, most situations I would set up the saw tracks to run parallel with the centre of the log. This way I would get good quality short boards around the edge of the log, the rubbish core would be cut out in one clean cut. Where as if I were to cut to taper, following the edge of the log I would have to change taper midway through the log leaving one large wide wedge of timber that I could not use. This wedge would consist of two side wings of quality timber and a core of semi rubbish timber.

Most cases where the mill is resting on mud or soft surfaces a simple board under the corner upright really helps stabillity and a rigidity, it really is as simple as that.

Hope this helps?

[lawyer_sawyer]

Thank you both for your answers.
I am sorry about the question I wrote...I had been up 36 hours and needed a break from what I was doing before going to bed.  It seemed well written at the time.

I am very greatful for a little better understanding of the taper issue.
If there are any Lucas owners who could tell me if this is something they like about their machines i would really appreciate it.

Also thank you for clarifying the shimming of the track.  adjustable posts would be a great advantage I am sure.

any and all other answers will be great thanks.

[Timburr]

Although Lucas's 'unique selling point' is 'sawing with the taper', it's more practical application is in the ease of staging logs.....the logs can be placed 'near enough' between the rails and the mill micro-adjusted for parallel alignment in a matter of seconds.
I seem to mill a lot of mis-shapen logs and find it a very useful asset to be able to quickly adjust the mill to the log edge for the next layer.
 
When I milled my first log, I followed the Lucas guidelines and cut with the taper, taking the waste out of the centre. I thought, 'WHAT A WASTE' and haven't done it since. I was keen, but green then.

Timber strength is not drasticaly compromised until the grain gradient becomes less than 1 in 12 and sloping grain may distort a bit more whilst drying, but it's no big deal. That's more to do wiyh log characteristics than milling set up.

If you want a 'staging' story; here's one.

We felled 3 oaks on the side of a mountain for a cottage framing project. No chance of milling them on a 45° angled slope so we got a tractor as near as we could  and attatched a long long steel rope to them. Half way down the mountain is a track cut into the rock, which to the outsider seems a sensible place to set up a mill.... no! The track is only 8' wide and still on a 1 in 5 slope and the 'rock walls' meant that the Lucas would sit at least 6' above the log. No milling  here!!
Any way, on with the story.
We were able to get them onto a 'FLAT' piece of land .... across a 1 in 5 slope. Now the milling headaches start. I placed some 2' high blocking under the lower side..... still too much of a DanG slope, so the height winch mechanism was disconnected to the lower rail and repositioned about 8" higher. Not ideal, 'cos the geometrics of the mill effectively push the rails apart.
Milling procedes cautiously and I manage to get out some very good beams under the circumstances, even if I say so myself. A moment of pride for a job well done.

A man's got to do what a man's got to do to get the job sorted.

So. Yes, swingers can be set up almost anywhere.

Cheers Tim

[BarryD]

I use a Lucas and have experimented with sawing with the taper.  One advantage I have noticed is that resetting at the pith to be parrallel with the bottom of the log makes it much easier to manage when you get down to the bottom of the log. 

I have found that if I do not do this on logs with significant taper, as I cut down toward the bottom it can get difficult to manage with on end very thin and the other end thick.  The log will start to sag between the bearers if I am not real careful to leave wings for stability.  I generally find it much easier if I am cutting down parrallel to the bottom of the log.

My two cents...  Barry

[arnold]

I use a Lucas and find that taper cutting for 1/4 sawing very important and it does give a little more waste in the centre but the premium $ is worth it. when I flat cut I line up with the pith on softwoods and again taper cut the hardwoods. The clear wood is where the money is and the core wood is as the others have said "just rubbish". Hope this makes sense.