Actual mill production: swingblades

[brdmkr]

I can't resist.  I have been following the thread dealing with bandsaw production and feel compelled to ask the same question of swing blades.  What are you guys getting on an average day?  I am just starting, but the idea of 1000 bf in a day seems out of reach with my Lucas 618. 

[Ianab]

depends what you are cutting I think.

If you had a 4ft dia 12ft long softwood log, you could certainly cut that into 6x2s in a day, and that 1200-1400 bf. If you have to spend 1/2 the day loading smaller logs and generally not cutting, then your mileage may vary 

[Arthur]

As Ianab has already posted it depends on the type of wood your cutting.  All mills have their best and their worst.

swingers tend not to do to well with tiny logs but excel in large hardwoods. Bandsaws do realy well in soft small stuff.

Ask the bandsawers how much Iron Bark or Yellow Box they can cut in a day and how many times they need to replace the blade?  You will see a massive drop in production.

arthur

[NZJake]

Gidday Brdmkr,

Rob, Chris's brother has been milling at the factory with his manual 8" wpf for the last few weeks, he and a tale man are achieving on average 6-7 cubic meters per day (around 2500bf), 4.5 metres long, log diameter an average of around 16", timbers seem to be anything from 4x2 - 8x8. Thats some idea for that diameter log (NZ pine). He has also been using the forklift for the loader. The logs are simply lined up on skids and handrolled over the low track into knotches.

Most days I go out to do a job I try and achieve around the 4000bf mark, I work in the factory full time so I don't get a chance go out a lot. When I do I try and tee up a good job and cut as much as I can in that day.

I'm heading out tomorrow to finish up my gum job, I hope to only be gone for half a day as I have to go play with my new boat for the other half. I'll load some pics up with the lumber tally at the end of it, hopefully it pans out according to plan?

[TN_man]

Our best has been 2400 bdft in an 8 hr period. We were cutting around 30" inch pine into 2x4 and 1x6.
That was when we first got the mill and we could probably do even better now. Boy, you should see Jacob (aka teenswinger) tear into those logs now. He has really gotten fast. The other day we did 4 logs in 30 minutes. I told him that I was going to enter him in the shootout. He could probably give a pretty good showing.
Like the others have said, it will all depend on the logs and how much time it will take to get them in place. When we were just cutting on one big log that had around 700 bdft in it alone, we finished it in about 2 1/2 hrs, cutting it into 1x6 only. That may not be record setting but it may give you an idea in real world application. It was 90F that day and we could have done better.
If you can develop a system to get your logs on quickly, it will definitely speed you up. That usually is the biggest hinderance.
BTW, Jacob has an ATS 827, so he has 2 winches to lower.

[Captain]

A day's total is difficult to tell lately...I can't cut for a day at a time.

Most custom jobs are about 1000BF.  My helper and I are usually able to get 1000BF done in about 3-4hrs inclucing setup, teardown, and "customer relations" (questions answered, payment arrangements, cutting instructions....)

Smaller logs are slower, due to all of the handling.  I think this slows down any sawmill.  Larger logs are a breeze, just keep cutting.....

My best day on a manual swingblade....4280BF in about 9hrs.  This was all Eastern white pine, 2x6 and 2x8 wherever I could.

My best day cutting hardwood 5/4, random widths was 3500BF.  the logs were pretty big.  I had 2 inexperienced helpers that day, but no support equipment, we loaded everything by hand.

My fastest time cutting, one 1040BF Poplar was 40 minutes....*disclaimer* I was cutting 8x3s, and flipped the bottom slab for a table top.  That's over 1500BF an hour, folks.  Totally unrealistic.

I just don't get that many calls for jobs that go over what I can accomplish in 4-6 hours with help.

You'll get there, Brdmkr.  It just takes time.

Captain

[rbjones03]

What and how you are sawing are the two keys to production. Sawing 12 ' 14"- 20" SYP my son and I can pretty much wear it out. I can cut it faster than an off bearer can stack it. But again we cut a black walnut the other day and it was slower than I ever dreamed because we tried to get a double cut on every level. I don't really worry about production as much as quality. A customer is not really impressed with how fast you saw but how well.

[Part_Timer]

    Our best so far is about 600bf in 7 hours.  we were cutting red oak 1x4 8'  we've only got about 15hours on the mill so far.  I'm more concerned about learning how to make sure we get the same size boards off each time we move the rails up and down.
   

                       Speed will come with time accuracy comes with patience/practice

[TN_man]

Rb makes a great point, speed can hinder quality and thus hinder customer relationship. Speed is important to us because it gets our money quicker, but not always to the customer. Develop your quality first, then try to do it faster.

[maple flats]

On a really good log (big, straight, no bad spots and little taper I have gotten 350 BF/HR with an inexperienced tailer, on the other hand I have also gotten about 50 BF/HR with a lesser log. Go for quality first. On many jobs with avg. logs I will average between 100 and 150 BF/HR for the job if the logs are set up on rails of some type that I can just roll the log onto my bunks for sawing. If I need to raise them or drag them to allign with the saw I lose a lot of production if I am not able to use my tractor for support/loading. This however is reflected in the price I charge. The easier the set up the lowere the price and vise versa.

[doublecut]

Well ours Twin saw models aren't  a swinger but thought i would my 2 cents in.
Have done 3500bdft to 4000bdft a day avg and best day 7350 in 8hours in 2 and 4 by material 3 of us .In Cants or beams 1000ft an hour.  All depends on the logs, set up time, what you are cutting , length of material ,the handling of your log , how much help you have.

On our swinger i,ve seen  2000 + bdft a day. 12 " + dia logs 12-16ft long. Straight sawing.Our doggin system really helped on the smaller logs. It takes practice and learning the tricks of the trade. CAn't expect to have high volumes when you first start , give it time as every log you cut will be a learning experience.
Me i had a good teacher ( DAD 50 years experience )

As a kid i can remember sitting in the sawyers box with my dad and watching him saw on the head rig. He wasn't happy with production 20,000 to 25,000 bdft a day so he ingeniusly developed a scragg system that he built  Directly inside of the head saw. 4 - 48" saws. Any the small logs that were too small for the carriage he would drop on to the chain from the infeed deck and send them through as he was sawing the bigger logs on the carriage at the same time. NOw ya wanna see production. He was the only one that was able to run it and people came from the other side of canada to see it run. Talk about put out lumber. Trippled their daily production. Had to add 2 more bull edgers lines to keep up.
Sorry got a little reminicent there.
doublecut

[woodbowl]

He wasn't happy with production 20,000 to 25,000 bdft a day so he ingeniusly developed a scragg system that he built Directly inside of the head saw. 4 - 48" saws. Any the small logs that were too small for the carriage he would drop on to the chain from the infeed deck and send them through as he was sawing the bigger logs on the carriage at the same time. NOw ya wanna see production. He was the only one that was able to run it and people came from the other side of canada to see it run. Talk about put out lumber. Trippled their daily production. Had to add 2 more bull edgers lines to keep up.

   Was he sawing two logs at the same time on the same track? 5 blades total?     

Sorry got a little reminicent there.

  No apology necessary..........just keep it comming!

[maple flats]

My Peterson today cut 5 16 penny nails, not sure how many board feet of nail that would be.

[Furby]

Well I'm betting it was more then 80 cents worth.

[NZJake]

Well things turned out as planned...

ASM, 1/2hr setup, 1hr milling, 1400bf, 2 helpers, 1 photographer. Big log and heavy beams. We spent the rest of the day fishing on lake Rotorua and having a few beers.

[Captain]

To contrast Jake, my day yesterday went as follows:

15 min setup.

28 logs avg approx 12" in diameter

1250 BF

5 hours including setup and teardown and 3 water breaks

1 helper

Captain

[Arthur]

NZJake

prefer your production but you didnt mention how many fish???

arthur

[doublecut]

Well I'm betting it was more then 80 cents worth.

No if you knew my dad he used exactly what he had on hand.
 He went inside the main saw and  used that same arbor to drive the scragg saws. He then added another green chain for the cant's coming off of the end of the chain that fed the 4 saws.  It was situated right under the sawyers cab. You couldn't see the log pass through the saws until it came out the other side of the operators cab . If i remember right it was about 5-6000.00 to put in since he did it all himself. But we are also talking about a few years ago now too.

Was he sawing two logs at the same time on the same track? 5 blades total?

Woodbowl 
There were 5 saws but as the chain was taking the small logs through the 4 scragg saws he would have a larger log on the carriage running it through the 56" head saw and 36" top saw. So not 2 on the same carriage but 2 at the same time on differnet feed systems that he operated from the cab.\
doublecut

[doublecut]

what species of fish do have there? Do you fly fish at all?
doublecut

[NZJake]

I'm pretty new to fresh water trolling, I'd rather go out to sea and catch a bunch of snapper. The fish tally?... one 'just' legal trout which we threw back cause he was just too small for our liking . Arthur-probably why I didn't mention it earlier .

Next week is the opening for lake Tarawera fishing season so I'm planning to catch some there, sounds like every man and there boats gonna be on the lake that day, we'll just follow the experts to the fish.

Doublecut, nope havent given flyfishin a go yet (would like to sometime though).

[doublecut]

NZJake
Well we have lots here. In a 200 mile radius of where we live there are 1100 fresh water fishing lakes.  Most of them you can see some 30 feet down into them .All prime fly fishing. So next year come on and we will hit some of them!!!!!!!!!!!!
doublecut

[Hammy]

Hey doublecut - count me on that one too will ya!!

Like NZjake I've done a bit of trolling on our lakes here in Rotorua & Taupo but never given fly fishing a go. Always fear I'm gonna loop that line around me own head    .......either that or the bloke next to me!!

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Practice without the fly, first, Hammond 

[Hammy]

Now thats some good ol Southern wisdom there FDH.

[Part_Timer]

My dad hooked the dog one time with a fly. My brother hooked my dad.  I flyfish alone now.  Seems safer to me

[DonE911]

I'm surprised my dad survived teaching my to fly fish.....  I hooked alot of stuff before I got the hang of it.  He had me start out with little tiny bugs we used to catch bluegill.... I guess he thought it was safest for him.

You might consider going to FL to learn to fly fish.  In the saltwater the flys are heavier easier to get moving.....  When you can throw a sinking line with big fly... it's easy to throw a dry fly with floating line... just can't get the distance you get with more weight.

Now after you've hooked up a 100lb plus tarpon on a fly rod, you may not get very excited about a little fresh water trout. 

[Arthur]

Lindsay

best you start a travel company for the FF  members wanting to fish.  Im sure most of them will enjoy the plane ride as well as the fishing.

Countryside views are amazing up there.

arthur

[BOSS]

Hi guys, sorry to get back on topic but im the guy who milled those pines jakes was talking about, the most ive ever done in one day is 11 m3 of Bluegum, cut  into 6 x 2 in 9 hrs, dont know how many boardfeet that is but i know the lake looked good as well as those trout,but had to find my taler as he was last seen under that 6 x 2!, production is generally anywhere from 2 - 6m3 depending on log sizes,cutting specs, terrain and loading gear for the logs,and these figures are based from milling 4- 5 days a week at a steady pace compared 2 flat out weekend warrior stuff,as why you can acheieve high production over short spurts doin it week in and out doesnt do the body any favours, I'd better go find my taler now i think hes still breathing!

[jpgreen]

Fishing in Italy!.. oh my,  I never thougha such a thing.  I'm packin' as we speak.. 

I read about that salt fly fishing back there DonE.  Man that sounds like fun.  I wanted one of your east coast boats.. a Shamrock, but it was going to cost to much to get it back here, So I settled on a SKipJack, which is very simuiliar, but it's a west coast made boat, and lots of em out here.  Rough water off shore small boats for sure.

[getoverit]

Tom, I think I have come up with a good way to get the same depth of cut each time with the ATS.

On each of the uprights, I cut a piece of magnet strip about an inch and a half long and stuck them to the uprights. Since the uprights are galvanized, they stick pretty good. I place the magnet strip right at the top of the red sliding clamp, and then lower the tracks 1 1/4" and lock it back in. This gives me perfect 1 1/8" boards every time if cutting horizontal. The same principal applies to lowering it any distance... just add the 1/4" to how many inches you want the board, and it gives that thickness plus about 1/16"

In other words, if I wanted an 8" board, I lower the rails 8 1/4".. then the boards come out about 8 1/16"

Guess I'll have to get you some pictures of this and post them, but it works for me. With time I guess I could figure out the scale system on the winch, but the magents are too easy to look at and measure. I also bought a 3 foot aluminum yard stick for use with this method.... total investment in the yard stick and a 4 foot roll of magnet is about $3

My next invention will be some kind of pointer for the vertical cuts in the log. I seem to have trouble telling where the first cut will be on the vertical cuts, and a pointer would be a benefit to me. Maybe with time I will just get a feel for it...

As far as production is concerned, I can cut boards out of hickory faster than my wife can stack and sticker them... I have to keep stopping sawing and go over to help her with a new row of stickers> I've only got the 13hp Honda too... if I had more HP and could cut them faster, then I would have to help stack and sticker them more too.

I cant wait to try my luck at SYP.... I can immagine that stuff cuts like butter compared to the hickory 

[jpgreen]

Ken-

Your improvements will probably take the ATS to new heights and be ready to go just about the time I own one..   

-and then again I might find a lucas for about $2,000.. 

[getoverit]

I spent several months looking for a bargain on a used mill before I bought the new Peterson. I thought I had found a good deal on a D&L demo mill that was fairly close to me, but my offer was refused and I backed off of it.

In between the time I placed the order for my mill, DonE911 decided to sell his 10" WPF, and also there is another owner with an 8" WPF listed in the commerce section. Neither one mentioned price, but I would suspect they are reasonable asking prices.

I also looked at bandmills. After going with a fellow sawyer for a day with a hydraulic bandmill, I'm *SOOOO* thankful I didnt waste my money on a manual bandmill. I cant imagine having to turn the logs manually, and getting them on the bed of the mill in the first place would be a real chore without hydraulics. If you plan on cutting any significant amount of logs, I definitely wouldnt recomend any manual bandmill, no matter what the brand. An occasional log once in a while might not be too bad, but any kind of production quota at all and you would be one tired puppy with a manual bandmill.

I'm sure that if you have the time to wait on a bargain, one will turn up sooner or later (like the one jpgreen stole bought ) Maybe even a good used swinger may turn up at a reasonable price.

[Part_Timer]

Ken

I understand.  sounds like a good idea. 
     I'm thinking about taking my dremel and engraving the sticker pattern into the face of the upright.  I tore up part of my sticker the other day and need to replace it.  Then I got to thinking why do that just to rip it again.  when I get a chance I'll get it done and take a picture of it.  If it turns out that is.

Tom

[solodan]

JP,

If you find at Lucas for $2000 I'll take it off your hands.
I know you really want that ATS
Plus, I would like another Lucas

[Tome]

Last fall I cut several 36-46 inch red and white oak longs,  I never keep an accurate account of the bf per hour but I do know that it would take me about 2 1/2 hrs to cut one of the logs.  I would usually cut two of them a day and quit.  They were cut on a 8"ATS.  Kept me in pretty good shape. 

Tom

[jpgreen]

One thing I have noticed, it seems there are a lot more WPF framed swing mills come up for sale used than the ATS.

I'm wondering if the flexability and weight (lighter) of the ATS has something to do with that?

[TN_man]

Tom,
Did you have an offloader? or is that by yourself?
That is doing pretty good if it is by yourself.

[Captain]

There are just flat out more WPFs here in the states than ATS mills.

Until recently, I sold WPFs 5:1 vs ATS models.

Lately, ATS sales are more brisk.  We are at about dead even these days.

Captain

[Tome]

Tom,
Did you have an offloader? or is that by yourself?
That is doing pretty good if it is by yourself.

No I didn't have an offloader, but I wasn't stripping them either, I was selling the lumber to a local buyer.  I didn't think I was doing that good to tell you the  truth, I believe if a guy will stay busy and not take a lot of breaks he can accomplish a lot more.  Another thing I do is I start at the wrong end of the log for my initial cut, I make my vertical cut first then my horizonal so my lumber is right beside me when I finish the cut.

[solodan]

That is the way I do it when working by myself too.

you will only walk all the way around to off load boards once. then you either find yourself a helper or do it the reverse way.

I cut this incense cedar  last week, and got about 500 bf in about 1 hour 15 min with a helper.


 a helper is nice and makes things easier but does not cut your man hrs in half unless the helper is doing other things like cleaning up and refueling ect.

we could have done it way faster if it were anything but incense cedar.
the big end was 33" and the small end was 27". that's some pretty good taper. but ya know, incense cedar sure makes nice siding and outside trim.