differences between swing blades

[woodbeard]

When I got my Peterson, I was choosing between it, a Lucas, and the Brand X sawmill.
 The Brand X is another swingblade type mill worth mentioning here. Here's a link to their site: www.brandxsawmills.com  I was leaning towards the X, but at that time he did not have a portable version. I think I mainly liked the fact that it is American made, and comes with log bunks with dogs.
 My interest in the Lucas was mainly the price- I could afford a new one, and pick it up from Bailey's here in TN. But I really did not like the two point raising system, and having to turn the whole carriage around to make a double cut.
 So, I kept a vigilant eye out for a used Peterson and eventually found one. I got a lot of good use out of it, mostly stationary, mobile a few times. It is indeed portable, and can be packed pretty far into the woods if necessary, but it is a lot of work to move.
This thread contains the reasons I eventually decided to get a bandmill:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=13389.0
I still think the Peterson is a great saw, and I'm glad I had the experience of running it, It was a good way for me to get into the sawing addic.. umm I mean business.  

[NZJake]

Gidday Lawyer sawyer,

I'll give you some of my thoughts... If you take your time and edge really well, a bandsaw should beat a circular on recovery, its most upfront advantage would have to be thinkerf and the abillity to cut wide boards, some people say they prefer the band finish also, straight lines accross the board rather then little arcs ( I like the arcs). I can also see some advantages to being trailerised, set up time is reduced (could someone clarify to me how long it takes you guys to set up your trailerised mills? I'm thinking, unhitching, levellers and whatever else you have to do for a typical job?). Ussually takes anywhere from 10mins-40mins to setup a swinger depending on the model ie fully automatic or basic. I can see having hydraulics for a bandsaw as being important, turning, dogging and levelling your log, I would consider these little toys to be fun to use also having advantage.

Having used a bandsaw at one of our overseas agents shop I felt that it was very difficult to cut to order, the customer was requesting an array of sized boards, I found it very hard to calculate for kerf-flip-clamp-rotate for variating sized boards, however I did get a very good handle on things when shooting for the same sized stock. Simplicity of operation is what I am getting at, I feel that operation is simpler on a swinger. Another thing I noted was the incredible tension release from squaring up a log, the swingblade differs in it's principle of cut in that it eats away at tensioned logs bit by bit reskimming as it goes, this too I feel is definately an advantage. I like the abillity to put the swinger on the back of your truck deck saving your trailer for timber at the end of the day. I'm not going to get into any depth here I just thought I might throw in a few ideas as I feel you have asked a very genuine question in regard to the difference of a band to a swingsaw. 

Before I get 'busted out' I better mention that I'm a fellow Peterson, although I believe myself to be a fully qualified sawyer  . Felled my first 'big' trees just the other weekend, gets the old heart pumping when you start to hear the crack (thats gotta mean I'm a genuine feller right? ).

[Part_Timer]

Hay Jake

define "big tree"

Where's the pictures?


Tom

[Arthur]

jake
 
If you combine an edger with your bandsaw you can get a very high recovery if the log is uniform.  I find that in Australia a good portion of logs are not uniform and get a better recovery by swingers.

very much swings and roundabouts.  If you have the milling requirements and the cashflow to allow it both are the best option.

having said that we have supplied to a number of traditional mills that due to new regulations can no longer rip the big logs down manually with a chainsaw so all they do is use an adapted slabbing mill to cut the log in half and then process it through their normal system.  Its a waste of the swingers capacity but its what they have and the way they want to work so cant convince them of the benefit of using a proper swinger.

you might find those with big bandsaws that have even bigger logs might use a swinger frame in the same manner.

easy modification to make to the slabbing device.  You just need to have it adjustable to the maximum depth cut you need for the bandmill.  If the bandmill can do 14" then thats the depth cut you need.

arthur

[pigman]

NZ Jake asked "could someone clarify to me how long it takes you guys to set up your trailerised mills? I'm thinking, unhitching, levellers and whatever else you have to do for a typical job?)."
On most job sites I can be ready to saw in 10 minutes. On steep ground I have taken 30 minutes or longer to set up to saw. I run a Wood-Miser 40hd.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Takes us about 30 minutes to set up with Homey.

[Minnesota_boy]

If I don't stop to BS with the customer, I can have a log loaded and ready to saw 5 minutes after I unhook from the truck.  LT40HD

[johncinquo]

LS- I say we find a current owner with each, go for a visit and demo, and have a great fall road trip!  I bet we can find em right here in MI without having to leave the state. 

[Part_Timer]

We're not in your state but we are setting up at a fund raiser for a school house restoration this Saturday.  I'm going to cut some 2x7 for the school house project.  If you would like to come you'r more than welcome..


Tom

[sigidi]

Lawyer-Sawyer,

have you had your q's answered?

Sorry I've been away for awhile and have not been on for a while - too long by the feel of it.

drop a response in if you still have q's I'll be watching this space.

Just fyi a very happy Lucas non-commisioned owner.

[lawyer_sawyer]

Thank you all again.
I have been away from here for a little while and just wanted to respond briefly.
Sigidi.  I am sorting through the information that I have recieved both here and the information from the companies.my questions still stand though and would love to have your insight.  If there are reasons to get a swingblade that made a big difference to you I would like to hear them as well as all the reasons for the brand that you got.  Reading the marketing info for each product is one thing but human opinion oftentimes is much easier to understand. 

Johncinquo - I am up for the trip but classes keep sucking me back into Ann Arbor.  As soon as possible I do want to go on site and see the saws operate next to each other. 

As to brands I think the sponors all have great saws for different niches.  If anyone has further information I would enjoy hearing it.

[sigidi]

1. Brand and why
Lucas 618, I primarily bought the 618 due to not being sure how much 8” stuff I would be required to cut, also not being sure how I would hold up (after a pretty severe work accident) to handling the bigger equipment. I was always going to be mobile and I felt the extra weight to be a thing I didn’t want to risk. I have a pretty badly injured right leg, but now I find the walking  behind the mill, is actually better for me, than becoming a architect/drafter. I wanted a mill since I first saw one 5 years ago, it just took me 4 years to get one, even though I’ve been cutting in my dreams plus eating and sleeping milling for that 4 years of limbo.
Choice between, what I thought at the time, the two mills available Lucas and Peterson The Lucas video portrayed an easier machine, the Peterson video showed two fella’s setting the machine up and one of them straining while he did it – I was also always to be working on my own. I have now since found out in the  Peterson video, they where using heavier/longer section tracks and thus the two fella set-up. Power was a second concern between the two machines, I just couldn’t understand how a 13hp would do the same job as a 25hp. Peterson’s entry 8” was driven by 13hp and Lucas entry 8” driven by 25hp and lastly, I felt at the time that for me there was a huge saftey concern in taking guards off the machine. I have spoken to Peterson about this and the other things I have mentioned, since I bought my machine and feel that maybe some of my reasoning to exclude Peterson, could have been as simple as requiring better communication??
Lawyer Sawyer I have to say I bought my Lucas and made my choice against Peterson, without ever trying either machine for myself. One would assume for the $’s a fella would at least try it if he could, well to be truthfull I had the $’s at the time and wanted to cut timber,

2. Would I do it the same – buy the same mill?
I would definitely buy the 827 and even get the 9”cut, maybe also buy the dedicated slabber rather than attachment, it is downtime which I don’t feel right to pass onto customers in the time to fit the attachment, although it has produced some glorious timber.
3. Recommendations
Remember the mill shines the most with big logs (18”+), but that doesn’t mean you can’t do small logs (12” or less) also big section timber is heavy, moving logs around is hard work, often times it has worked out easier to move the mill rather than the log. If you are building a 400 square metre house, you need a HUGE pile of logs.

Sorry for the length of reply, but I just love sawmilling, let me know if you need/are up to handling more

[lawyer_sawyer]

Sigidi thanks for your response.
I would love to hear all you have to say on your experiences and especially those tools or features that help you the most.  I am unsure if I will be sawing alone or with help in the future so any information on that is huge.

I would also like to hear from other swing blade owners if there are any specific features their saws have that they don't believe other saws have that helped make their choice for them on the brand to buy.

[woodsteach]

I picked the BrandX sawmill for several reasons and here are some of them:
1.  American Made
2. I get to go to NW Montana to pick it up and have Jay teach me how to opperate it.
3.  I liked the idea of the swing mill on a heavy track system.  Like a band mill
4.  Jay was great to work with.  (although I must give the peterson folks a large tip of the hat here also, they have great customer service also)
5.  Jay custom builds each one and since I am a south paw he is setting it up accordingly.


I'll let you all  know more in 4 weeks when I get to go pick it up and if the boss lets me get a digial camera you might get to see some pix of Jay's set up.

disclaimer:    I am not compensated in any way from Brand X.

Woodsteach

[DonE911]

lawyer-sawyer

I just got my swing mill.  I bought a Peterson 10" WPF.  I started out just looking at a 6" mill thinking thats all I really needed....  then I got to thinking that softwood rafters/joist are going to be at least 8"'s.  I plan on targeting the horse owners market and almost every barn around here has a hay loft.  I decided a 8" made more since than double cutting to get a 2x8 for joist and rafters.

I got the 10" because it was close to me, the price was right, it was comming with lots of extra's and that I was buying it from a FF member.  If it had been an 8" I would have still gotten it, but bigger is better in some cases..... I like the fact that I can now cut a 2x10 ( thats the joist that are going in my barn ) without double cutting.  I do see the need for double cutting for wider boards, but it's nice not to have to do it up to 10"'s.

I chose a Peterson over Lucas although I admittedly didn't look much at the others.  I didn't like the raising method on the lucas and I did like the all stainless and aluminum of the Peterson.  Peterson's customer service has been the best I have ever dealt with.  The only drawback was the delivery time from NZ.  I bought a used mill so that wasn't really an issue, but I would have waited for the shipping to get what I wanted.  Alot of buyers may not do that.... Americans want to have things "right now"... thats why car dealerships stock so many cars.  I understand there is at least one mill here in the states in the care of a Peterson Regional rep.  This can only be a good thing and if Peterson is able to get a few more new mills here in the states for new buyers, the shipping delay ( customs ect ) will not be an issue.  I would feel much better going to get my mill ( or having it delivered by )from a miller and not a salesman... someone that understands the machine and will show me how to use it without trying to force a sales pitch down my neck and doesn't have to any dealing with the $$.

I've only had it a few days, but the smile is still on my face.....  I have learned that setup is not difficult, I made a few mistakes the first time that I will not make from this point out.  The rails are aluminum, but not that the cheapy thin stuff....  they are a sturdy thick aluminum and the sections can be moved by one person... with 2 sections bolted together I can not carry them alone... I'm 5'11 and 190 lbs and the length is the issue for me, not the weight.  No problem.... I just put them together in place.   At this time I feel I have made the correct call by going with a swinger over a bandmill.  I still have my Logosol M7 for cutting little logs, although I may sell that off and get a small bandmill to handle the little logs some day if the swinger doesn't do what I want.  I'm betting that when properly dogged the smaller stuff wont be an issue on the swinger.

I have only cut one small log ( it was a firewood log to be honest ) and the lumber came out straight and true... I have to admit it's not sized correctly, but for the first attempt and not understanding the scales (Chris showed me how they work, but I forgot by the time I got home) I'm very happy.  I also like the sawdust it creates much better... I know how that sounds, but the dust is much coarser as compared to my chainsaw mill.  The coarser dust is perfect for stall bedding... remember the horses?  It will be easier to spread on the pastures with a small spreader and it's heavy enough not to blow around in the wind.  There are several good sized stables around me and I don't think I'll have any problem selling them the sawdust. I have given each owner a little dust  ( 45 gallon bags for free ) and they did complain about the shavings they already use because they jam up the small manure speaders they use and they don't decompose fast enough. You can see all the small shaving's and chips laying on the pastures.... I'd worry about my horse eating them while on pasture.

This has been pretty long so I'll stop here, but if there is anything you want to know that I can answer please feel free to ask..... I may not know the answer yet, but if you buy a mill, you'll be in my shoes one day, so maybe now is a good time to ask.

[sigidi]

I would love to hear all you have to say on your experiences and especially those tools or features that help you the most. I am unsure if I will be sawing alone or with help in the future so any information on that is huge.

I can just hear Wifey now "He didn't really mean he wants to hear ALL you have to say" I have found a way of setting up which works great for me as a single operator, also moving the mill if required. I'd say that most the Lucas users would do it pretty much the same way. If I have help around and need to move the mill I pick it up in one piece, I take the carriage off, but the end frames and tracks all move together. I shove two 3"x1.5" sticks under the intersection of the track extensions and the main track, then the two of us walk off with it. It helps if the end frames are not right at the end of the main track otherwise you keep hitting your legs on them. Then if the log is already in place to mill, we drop it beside the log then slide it over the top of the log. Pretty quick but also needs to have another fella there. If I'm moving on my own I break it down to four peices, the two tracks (with or without extensions) and the two end frames. Probably nothing new to Lucas owners .

I mention moving the mill, as often I should have moved the mill rather than the log, but have been caught in a mindset of leaving the mill in one place. I don't like the downtime of moving the mill and the lack of boards at the end of the day.

I feel the biggest challenge I have with using a swinger is efficient log handling and lining up. I would love to have some machinery, ideally an ex-Army Mack crane truck. (as I know them first hand - 5 years service in a transport squadron) The crane truck would be a terrific tool/feature which would help the most. Any log I have got to mill so far, it would move. Also their off-road capacity would be terrific to get logs which most just have to leave behind. I know that not many of us have the cash flow to manage that, especially me, but for the time being I use a home made cant hook and an iron bar (the iron bar I need to have hardened or something as it bends too often) These two tools are the best help to me.

Also a good set of log supports is a must I feel, they get the log off the ground (means you can recover more) and hold it in place to allow maximum recovery with mimimum vibration. I get a bit serious about the log supports and screw in the blocks holding the log for each new log, this maybe overkill, but it has let me recover some pretty good amounts out of logs and I have't lost one yet.

More to come if you want it - but I can just hear Wifey saying "you talk about milling all the time!!"

[arnold]

This thread is one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Bandsaws have their place on small logs and outshine swingblades, to cut big logs you just can't go past a swing. One must not forget that when you put a chainsaw to breakdown a large log you must factor the woodchip loss of good timber, and as well the correction skim as another loss. The other issue is sharpening and retensioning of bands. You need to be very good at or one needs to purchase the right gear to do that.
The issue of lucas having two winches on their mill is that you can set up to suit the taper of a log and not have to spend more downtime jacking logs.
The lucas  tracks are one piece and don't get that sagg when you have jointed tracks.
I have not bought the company But do sell Lucas in new Zealand and the pacific. I operate an 827 on a daily basis. The mill sits in one position and feed it with a loader. The cut sizes vary and the eucalyptus logs are converted onto rail ties 8x4 and 6x4, 8ft long at an average daily output of 4200 bft (7hrs).
The log weights are anywhere from 5 ton to 18 ton at 17ft. As I am so used to doing large logs I have not been able to consider a bandmill for this purpose, however when I do the more valuable species I billet cut and send to a bandmill operator.
As for the comparisions between swingblades the results from the last two shootouts in the USA speak for themselves.
When I get the hang of it I will put some pics of logs etc.

[Captain]

Careful on the shootout results Arnold.

The Peterson time was actually mathematically faster than Lucas, less miscuts.  Do a calculation based on the log lot size and time to cut.

As for the miscuts as judged, they were caused by a new sizing decal that was out of spec.  The first one I had ever seen.  Several forum members were on hand to see the miscuts judged, and I'll let them render their opinion.  I realized after the dust had settled what had happened.  I was a little disappointed that the BF lost to miscuts was not included in the writeup as in previous Shootout Reports.  Some have the impression that out low recovery was all sawdust.

Captain

[Jeff]

Arnold, please keep your comments restricted to the mill you represent. I will not have another situation here where one brand is trying to one up the other. We went down that road once. We are pleased and eager to have you tell us about what your mill can do, but as a distributer, I cant have you telling us what "the others can't do"

Thanks.

Forestry Forum Administration

[crtreedude]

Jeff,

I have a solution - all manufactors of sawmills can send me one of each of their models. I promise to test them out thoroughly - for years and years if need be.  I promise regular status reports.

This way an impartial third party can state how each one works.

Do I have any takers? I promise not to charge for the testing like I do in software. You manufactors should be happy.