Producing Ethanol At Home

[Gary_B]

 Seems like when gasoline was selling for a buck a gallon it just wasnt practical to manufacture ethanol from corn, not quite enough profit, but now with gas prices running 2.60 a gallon I cannot believe  why they cannot go with a alternate fuel source. The price of a bushel of corn hasnt trippled, in a few years. But I guess we have our oil company's to thank not to mention our goverment. If only our wages would continue upwards as the cost of living....just my two cents.....
                                                                 Gary

[Dan_Shade]

race cars that run methanol typically run a blend, mainly so you can see if you have a fire...

methanol is extremely corrosive, it will eat up carburetors and gaskets and o-rings and all of that.  most race cars after they are done racing, they run gasoline through the system until it flushes out most of the alcohol.

also, you need about 3x as much alcohol to have the air/fuel ratio correct than you do gas, gas is like 14:1 and alcohol is 5:1` or 6:1 or somethign like that, i can't remember the details.

if you do swap over, you need a new carburetor, or if you are fuel injected, probably new injectors, and definately a computer chip.

It could be done, i'm gonna have to think about this one

[Don P]

I think the simple way to run an engine off wood waste is to use woodgas  . During WWII  cars in gas starved countries were fitted with a burner and hopper that basically ran the car on the carbon monoxide that was produced by burning wood waste in a closed container and feeding it to the engine after cleaning it as best they could. It was bulky and tough on parts from what I've read.
Methane requires pretty tight temperature, carbon/nitrogen and ph control to keep the bacteria happy and bubbly.

[Tom]

I keep looking up the difference in ethynol and methynol because of the poison aspect and because methynol isn't methane.

Here is an interesting link
Fuel Cell technology

I became interested in the difference when it was suggested that sawdust was to be distilled.  I wanted to know if that would produce Ethynol (a non-poisonous fuel) or Methynol (a deadly poison).

I'm still looking for sites that would describe  the manufacture of Methynol without too much luck.   I have found some that indicate that the "wood Gas" subject discussed earlier might be a methynol-like producer since methlynol can be produced by burning carbon monoxide in the presence of Hydrogen.

This link is the best that I've found so far.  I can understand a little of it anyway.

[DonE911]

I read up some on this ... I bet we all have with gas prices going up over $3 a gal.

Just going by whats on the site you would be spending aprox 1.50 a gal to produce the fuel.  If you build what is on the plans you can produce aprox 5 gal's per hour, but thats a hands on per hour rate.

I use aprox 2 tanks of gas in each vehicle every week. Aprox 85 gal's a week give or take 5 gal's. 
It would take aprox 16 hours to produce my fuel for the week.

85 gal @ $3 a gal = $255

85 gal eth @ 1.50 = $128

That sounds like a good savings and worth doing if you don't account for your labor or lost earnings for those 16 or so hours per week you spend producing fuel. Or you could double your investment and make a bigger still or maybe 2 of the units they sell the plan for and cut your time down.

I guess you could grow your own corn and have an addition savings.  I'm not a farmer.. for those that know how many acres of corn would you need to grow?? Then you'd have the expense of the corn and someplace to store it I guess.

 

I'm rambling.... sorry.

[DanG]

In some areas they are selling "E85" fuel for cars that are compatible.  E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% Gasoline.   The newer cars are labeled if they are compatible.  Do a Google on E85 for loads of info on it.  You will learn there that the Gov't is NOT discouraging the production and use of alcohol.  The US Energy Dept.'s website includes links with plans and instructions, forums, and other resources for those who want to produce their own fuel.

Also, our County Ag Dept. has aquired a Federal grant for a methane gas project.  A number of locals will recieve free equipment and training.  I didn't qualify because I don't have a large enough supply of poop, or a sufficient need for the gas.  The participants will be required to help each other get the units up and running.  The gas produced will be used to replace propane on a number of local farms.

I recently looked at the Minnesota Lung Assn's site, found on the E85 Google search, and gleened lots of info there.  They are promoting E85 because it is cleaner burning.  One thing that was pointed out there about alcohol use, was that the grain can still be used for livestock feed after the processing.  According to their info, 32 lbs of feed grain remains after extracting the oil and making the whisk.....err fuel from one bushel of corn.

[ronwood]

Website on E85 fuel.

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

[GF]

They sell E85 here in Oklahoma problem is that its always the same price as normal gas, and then they have a news report asking how come people are not using it.  Imagine that.

You can make around 65 gallons of ethanol from a ton of sawdust, and around 75 gallons from a ton of straw.

If you have ever had a cotton (or mostly cotton) shirt or pants ruined by contact with battery acid, you have seen the acid hydrolysis of cellulose reaction. The acid acts as a catalyst, so it is not consumed by the reaction. It breaks down the cellulose and hemicellulose into simple carbohydrates - it de-polymerizes the long molecular chains and cross-links of cellulose, mostly into one of the mirror isomers of glucose known as mannose, with smaller xylose molecules from the other bits and pieces of the chopped up cellulose molecules.

Since the sugar is water soluble while cellulose is not, when you wash the clothes, they go into the machine seemingly intact, but when they come out they are full of holes because the once strong cotton fibers mostly turned to sugars, which washed away in the laundry with the dirt, leaving holes where the reaction took place.

However, this new development does have Greenpeace and other environmental activists worried: It involves a genetically modified organism: a genetically engineered yeast
to convert glucose AND xylose into ethanol.

Also there apparently is a special microbe that can break down cellulose and hemicellulose and then immediately ferment the sugars as they form, this would a much different strategy than using acids. It involves a genetically modified organism: a genetically engineered yeast to convert glucose AND xylose into ethanol (kinda like the genetically engineered corn we heard about in the past).   Perdue University has the patent on this genetically engineered yeast.

[DanG]

The pump price of E85 would/will come down as production increases.  That is a supply and demand issue.  I am as concerned as anyone about the current prices, but I'm more concerned about the bigger picture.  Bottom line is, ethanol is renewable, petroleum is not.  We are getting out of the gate very late in developing alternatives to oil, so we need to get to work on it NOW!  Maybe it can't replace oil entirely, but it can DanG sure take some of the pressure off, and help clean up the air, to boot.

[GF]

DanG, hafta get the oil tycoons out of capital hill first.

Supply and demand for E85 is nothing here because no one uses it because its the same price as gasoline.  Not sure where the demand for E85 is coming from that is driving up the cost. 

[Norm]

One of the ethanol plants that just went online here is already going to double their capacity. If I have a choice between imported oil or domestic ethanol at the same price it's a pretty easy choice. Me I'm planning on more corn on corn acres next year.

[GF]

They are started on a ethanol facility in Enid OK, its supposed to produce a minimum of 50,000,000 gallons of ethanol annualy, and be using 50,000 bushels of corn daily. 

[DouginUtah]

All this for a product that has an EROEI (energy returned on energy input) of less than one!

If it wasn't for the stupidity of Congress (the notable exception being Republican Roscoe Bartlett of Maryland) and the 51¢ a gallon Federal sudsidy, the ethanol industry would disappear.

-Doug

(If you really think ethanol is the answer or that there even is a viable alternative energy source you should read Life After The Oil Crash and look for "What about biofuels such as biodiesel and ethanol?)




fixed (Thanks,Tom)

[Norm]

Ethanol is actually 1.67 with the latest techniqes. If bio-mass or coal is used it is a little higher.

http://www.iowafarmbureau.com/search_fullarticle.aspx?fullstoryid=22429&db=0

A reliable source for this is here.

[Tom]

Just a thought.

Much of the price of petroleum fuel goes to the middlemen and to the government for taxes.  Granted, the field workers need to make a living, but, what is the comparitive cost of ethenol to Gasoline if you discount the non-essential costs of the gasoline?

[DanG]

1.67 was the ethanol EROEI I came up with, too, vs .79 for gasoline.  Admittedly, I have no first hand experience with this.  All I "know" is what I have read, and there is conflicting info out there.  I think most of us are in that same boat right now.  I'm trying to keep an open mind about it, and I hope everybody else will, too.

On one of the sites I visited, there was a forum where E85 users could report the prices they had paid and comment on the performance they observed.  Prices varied so greatly that it was obvious that some dealer/distributors were gouging folks real deep.

[johnjbc]

Norm-F
Does that include the fuel to plow, plant, and harvest the corn?

Doug
Sure hope the scenario in that link isn’t true. Otherwise eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we 

[DanG]

Doug, I went back and scanned over that article, very lightly.  I don't have time to read the whole thing right now.  I gotta go out and burn some more diesel fuel.  I will read it later, though.  Could you synopsize it for us, just for the sake of this conversation?  Does the guy ever get around to offering a solution?

Good on Mr. Bartlett for creating the subsidy, but that isn't the answer, long-term, either.  It does no good for the gov't to pay for it, because we ARE the gov't.  We are paying, either way.  The subsidy is a good way to get people accustomed to using it, and making it popular enough for companies to make more of it, though.

IMHO, the combination of ethanol and methane gas, working together could make a significant difference in our petroleum consumption as well as solving a couple of other little problems we have.  Both of them utilize resources that are currently being wasted or ignored.  Both of them leave useful by-products behind.  Both of them burn cleaner than petroleum products.  Where's the down side?

John, it is my understanding that it does.  The .79 figure for petrol also includes exploration, drilling, etc

[Norm]

Yes it does John.

[DouginUtah]

Oh, boy. 

First, I want to correct a misunderstanding that DanG took from my post. Rosco Barlett is, as far as I know, the only congressman who gets the facts about peak oil. I am sure he was in no way responsible for the subsidy on ethanol. But I agree with you that taxpayers should not be subsidizing mothers taking their kids to soccer practice in their gas guzzling V-8 SUVs.

To Tom: Thanks for correcting the link--but is is not quite what I had in mind. I was trying to get the link to be available by clicking on "this". If you can help me figure out what was wrong with the original code I would appreciate it.

To Dan: I've seen the web site where you got that .97. It is a pro-ethanol site and the number is so ridiculous I'm surprised anyone takes it seriously. If energy has less than an EROEI of one it is not economical to produce. There would be no crude used if it was less than one. It is actually about 30:1. As for the "cleaner" argument, the pollution is not coming from the automobiles, true. It is left back where it was produced. Same with hydrogen. And for what it worth, hydrogen is much worse than ethanol as an alternative energy--which, incidently, it isn't because it is just a "battery".
Savinvar doesn't offer much of a solution because there isn't much of a solution. Try prayer. Otherwise get used to an agricultural society, like back in the 1800s. Form "local communities".

To Norm:  I guess one just has to choose who's biases one believes. Could any pro-ethanol site say otherwise? Could the Iowa Farm Bureau survive if it said, "No, we shouldn't pump up the price of corn by building ethanol plants."?

To John: It's not whether it is true--it is (there's my bias  ). The question is just "when?". Katrina is just a trial run for peak oil. If it slows the economy down then the peak will be extended but it will come.

-Doug