swing blades and small logs

[brdmkr]

Any tips for cutting small logs with a swing blade?  It seems that I read somewhere that you should open the log, then flip and cut the other 3 sides.  It seems to me that the sides may not be parallel if done this way.  I am speaking of really small stuff, about 7 - 8 inches on the small end.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 That's the main reason I bought a Peterson. Logs from 6" & up to 6'. Takes longer to make footage, but, the swingers will cut 'em/ Stack them up in piles of 6 and saw each one as it lays in the pile.

[Tom]

dig a hole with post hole diggers and put them back in the ground.  Maybe they will root and grow up into a saw log. 

I"m afraid you will find that logs that size are a chore on any kind of mill.   I try to have a "cut-off" size of 9" because that will maybe square 6".   

Small logs like that might make decent posts, but  they are usually all immature wood and pith.

Those are the kinds of sticks that a customer will wait until last to give to you and then say,"you can just make some 1x4's out of these." 

[Ianab]

Like the guys say - no real problem cutting small logs, just you have to cut a heck of a lot of them to get a decent stack of boards 
The flipping and cutting method would work as long as your bunks are excatly parrallel to the rails. If you are sawing in a fixed location (concrete pad) then thats easy enough. If you are mobile the bunks are never going to stay exactly in position. Normal sawing it doesn't matter if they are 1/2" out, but with flipping the log it's going to be a pain.
Lining several of them up on the bunks at one time makes things quicker and some more positive  method of clamping down the small logs will help.
I've cut 6" dia cypress logs no problem, but you look at the 6 4"x1"s you recover and think 'Was it really worth it' 

Cheers

Ian

[brdmkr]

I plan on just cutting 4 x 4s, and I am just trying to think of something that will make the work as effecient as possible.  Everything I consider seems like a pretty slow go.

[woodbowl]

Lining several of them up on the bunks at one time makes things quicker and some more positive  method of clamping down the small logs will help.
I've cut 6" dia cypress logs no problem, but you look at the 6 4"x1"s you
recover and think 'Was it really worth it'               Ian, I've seen people saw several small logs side by side on their Lucas. For some reason they left a 6"  space between each log. Is this necessary? Say........ you could dog them all down good and they were all center with the blade, is there any reason why jamming them all together without a space would not work just as well or maybe even better? It just seems that for all the trouble it take to cut a small log, maybe there are some tricks like this to speed up the process. The more logs you can do at one time, the less times you will have to lower the rails.

[Arthur]

Tom

when we first got our pigs it was a quick build a pen now.  I phoned a local who was moving and he gave us the pig as long as we took it that afternoon.

Having an augur on the bobcat I drilled the holes and put up the yard in about 2 1/2 hrs.  We felled some 9" trees close by for the posts and had them in the ground within minutes of felling.

8 weeks later most had started growing.  We broke most new growth off which killed those but had a few we missed and 3 years on they are still growing.

arthur

[Tom]

That's funny.

We have some hardwoods here that you have to be careful of using green for posts or they will root.

It' s funny that the most posts that I've seen root have been in, or around, pig pens. 

[Arthur]

Tom

At least with the poles rooting the pigs have some shade.  All the trees carfully selected to give shade inside the pens are now dead or dying!!!  The pigs seem to have killed them somehow.

arthur

[Ianab]

Ian, I've seen people saw several small logs side by side on their Lucas. For some reason they left a 6"  space between each log. Is this necessary? Say........ you could dog them all down good and they were all center with the blade, is there any reason why jamming them all together without a space would not work just as well or maybe even better? It just seems that for all the trouble it take to cut a small log, maybe there are some tricks like this to speed up the process. The more logs you can do at one time, the less times you will have to lower the rails.

Two problems I can see there...
If the logs were tapered the outside ones wouldn't be straight with the mill anymore. Being an inch offline on small logs is really going to hit your recovery percentage 
Also the normal 'notch in the bunks' holding system wouldn't work (the logs will be different sizes). You would need some sort of adjustable dogging system. I dont think it would be worth it because of problem 1.

By having 3 sets of notches each log is lined up correctly and supported irregardless of size or taper.

Ian

[woodbowl]

Ian
    That answers all those questions. Thanks..........................Now I am looking toward the next phase of a hair brain idea. Lets say your swinger is set up on a trolly and able to move laterally down an endless line up up logs. These logs are positioned on a fixed bed, doged in place and paralell with the blade. Now the mill is not limited to the space within the frames but rather a range as long as the trolly permits. Positioning new logs and removing last slabs can be done ahead and behind the operation, thus allowing to sawyer to continue an uninterrupted  rythum. I've seen the ASM work at Moultrie last year. It is awsome in big logs..............This is an attempt to configure a situation that will allow  high yeild production even on small logs using a swingblade. The question is: Using the average mean diameter of 8"-10" X 8', what is your speculation of production in a 6 hour time period?

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Requires a LOT of helpers 

  MIGHT be selling the parts for the Homeswinger if yer interested. 

[Arthur]

woodbowl

we do this for high production with medium to large logs.  We replace the feet on our mills with heavy duty 4" wheels which fit into a C section fixed into the floor of the factory.  These feet have locks/brakes on them to lock the mill in location.

A crew of 5 running two setups like this work most efficiently.  Two per mill and one running the fork lift, etc.

The fifth man removes and clears the milling area while the milling team are onto the next log.  He then sets up the next log and removes any completed packs to the sawn timber processing area away from the mills.  As soon as the current log has been finished its unlock the brakes and slide the mill over and start milling again.

On an average 8 hr day they produce 3cu M per man of sawn timber.  They have 10 working 4 mills and produce as much high quality boards as the traditional mill next door to me with 20 men working just making pallets.

arthur

[woodbowl]

Well......................I guess I can chock that up for another good idea that I reinvented without knowing it.   Now I've got to figure out how many board feet are in a cubic meter.  Have you got that stainless steel eco ready for Moultrie yet? We're looking forward to seeing you all.

[Dan_Shade]

roughly 423 board feet to the cubic meter

stupid metric system 

[Vermonter]

If you're just making 4x4's, flatten the top of a bigger log and leave a lip on the right.  Lay a small log on top, and run a couple of screws into the lower log, one on each end of the log.   Flatten the top and slice the sides.  by snugging it up against the lip, I can often get away with flipping it over, lowering to 4", and flattening the last side without replacing the screws.  I like the strong-tie timber screws with the 1/4" heads.   They're easier to see.  Still slow, but adds up.
I like sawing siding from small softwood logs, flatten the top and only get one drop.  Better yield, and you can trash the slab that has all the grooves.  I screw those down too.  Yes, I hit a screw once.  Any club for that?

[Arthur]

roughly 423 board feet to the cubic meter

stupid metric system

Only the USA and Canada are left using the NON-METRIC system.  The rest of the world requires metric.  Most containers and freight is done by metric.  You dont send 1000 board foot of stone or beef, etc,etc,etc.

Dont know about your sales of wood in the USA though.  How do you by your 2" x 4". by the linial or board foot???

I know some of the older folks here still talk super foot.

[Arthur]

Well......................I guess I can chock that up for another good idea that I reinvented without knowing it. Now I've got to figure out how many board feet are in a cubic meter. Have you got that stainless steel eco ready for Moultrie yet? We're looking forward to seeing you all.

Lindsay has the 35hp fully fuctional, this will be at the Moultrie show.  He has only just got back and has been busy getting all the info he can out of me for the MiniMill.  I have one working here and have sent pics to him so he can do the same in canada.  You should see some pics from him by the weekend.

MiniMill should be at Moultrie just dont know if Lindsay will take one or if I will bring one as hand laugage.  Current all up weight so far is only 90kg but im trying to reduce this further.

arthur

[robotguy]

brdmr; your post says you are only going to make 4x4,s  using a swing blade. there are two sites you might look at that may give you some more info on small diamiter stems milling.
 
whittler 2 ;  if you do an archives search here on the F.F. you will find there web site & phone #  the mill is portable & is designed for small diamiter *stems*, & made in oroville WA. there e-mail address is on the web site but e-mails come back as undeliverable & the ph# is incorrect . you could call information & run the names showing on the w-site,, might get lucky & get a contact.
the stem is ran thru a pair of chipper blades fitted with planner knives to get two sides, next the stem is ran thru a set of saw blades or three depending on what you are cutting  4 x 4 or 2 x 4 / it appears that the middle blade can be moved in & out of the path of the stem for this. there w-site states they can cut  4x4 5x5x & 6 x 6 in any configuration needed.

hegsaw;  the mill i belive is made & finland & is very,,, very ,,, nice. there web side has a lot of info & there is an e-mail form for more info if needed , the mill runs the whole stem/log  bark & all & chipps & saws all at once , the way they process it is remarkable & i think the speed is 175,feet/min .
i found the chipper blades realy unique and have not seen anything like that for de-barking a log/stem.

the post by arthur dyason was very interesting . if i am getting this right you line up a row of stems & *mill as you go* moving down the row . really good idea there. 

queston; have you researched a market for the 4x4,s ??

are you going to use softwood or hard wood or both. ??

there is a recent post her on grading & certifying privatly cut wood  vrs wood from a mill, have you found a answer for that or will it be needed with your 4x4,s

is your wood source going to be private or public lands or both, & have you determinded the average stems per acre /vrs costs.

are you going to mill on site or transport the stems to a mill site.

as you may have guessed i also am interested in small diamiter stem milling  however i have not found a suitable cost effective way to mill them so far

woodmizer has a bolt-on attachment that allows you to position several stems on there mill & make a pass then rotate 90 degrees & repeate the process , i dont know if that is cost effective & am unknowledgeable on how a swing blade could be maximized to do what you want . however the F.F. has a wealth of info & lots of wisdom.     

i have a idea (foresty forum brainstorm???) bouncing around in the brain upstairs and a skeleton prototype in the garage. however nothing concrete & no wood sawn yet.
 i build robotics as an hobby (i.e. robots the size of a ford f150 pick-up) and see a future for this in the forestry industry for small stem/log harvesting & processing where larger machines (forwarders & harvesters)  are not cost effective to use. 

[woodbowl]

Robotguy,
   I believe you are right! Here in the SE the writing is all over the wall. There is so much fast growing pine. The mills have geared up to accept small diameter and now they won't take anything over 27". I run into big dia of course but I custom saw and it mainly comes from peoples yards. I am concerned because I sometimes have to turn down small dia jobs because I can't make any money. I too have been looking long and hard at spitting out lumber from small logs but using a portable mill. The key is in the tech. Make a smart mill that is so simple that it proclaims loudly "of course, why didn't I think of that long ago". Is the WM attachment of an end dog configuration?

[DanG]

I got a idea for ya, brdmkr!  We could build a jig to hold your little logs that would lift the log in one motion, rather than cranking the mill up and down.  I'm thinking of something like a parallel divider with a lever to do the lifting.  It would have to have some clamps on it, but once you set your levels properly, you wouldn't have to worry about hitting them.  I'm gonna think on it a bit more, but I got a lot of it figgered out.....I think.

[woodbowl]

Uh ohhhhhhhhh.............DanG's thankin' again........Here is the visual.  Yall hang on, this could be DanGerous.

[brdmkr]

DanG, I guess I am having trouble following you on this one.  Seems like raising from below would make it pretty tough to walk the blade .   However, I am open to trying anything.  I cut down a water oak to play with.  I was going to cut it up today, but I spent the day cleaning up on the land.  I hope to cut down 2 or 3 more this next week as next weekend is a long one.  I am hoping to have 6 - 8 logs ready to be sawed .  As soon as I get the perc test, I aim to start clearing out for the shop (the reason for the question about the small logs).  Perc test is Tuesday, so there could be some smallish pines hitting the ground this weekend    .

[DanG]

I don't wonder that I confuzzed ya.  I was high on caffeine when I posted that.

The lifting mechanism I'm thinking about would be directly under the log.  You would only have to step over a couple of 4x6's, like you do now.  Now think about it.  If you pull an arch forward, it not only advances, but also rises, right?  If you attach 2 identical arches to one another, and advance one of them, they both rise the same amount.  If the log is afixed to them, the log rises, both ends equally.  All ya gotta do is calibrate the length of the arches and the distance to move them, and come up with some sort of clamp to hold the log in place.

[brdmkr]

I think I see what you are talking about.  At least with respect to the mechanism being under the log.  I also understand how an arch advances and raises, but I am still having trouble figuring out just how it would work.  Would the arch be somehow anchored to the bunks?

[DanG]

That's what I'm envisioning.  You would have an "H" shaped framework on the ground that would only be for stability.  The "arches" would be fastened to that, then you would have a longitudinal pair of "rails", if you will, that would cradle the log.  The rails would be just a pair of 2x4s or something, with a bit of steel under them.  The arches would only have to be about 6" long, cause you only need to raise the log 4".  Those little 7 or 8 inch pines are light enough to be handled by hand, with a little help from Logrite   and you could rotate the assembly with a detachable lever(a stick in a hole).

You would just load the log at the lower level, skin the top off, then raise it up with one motion, without walking to the corners of the frame, and make your other 3 cuts at that level.  You could cut 4x4s all day and never touch the winches on the mill.

Maybe I'd better shut up and call the patent office, eh?

[NZJake]

All you need if your considering a swingblade is... a WPF with ellectric up and down and 3 sets of clawed logdogs ingrooved into your bunks.

A matter of a few seconds you'll have your cutting head up or down without moving an inch. I did a whole bunch of those pesky sized logs in Germany, 'Ulf's yard, over here we'd call them firewood. Still managed to get some nice timber out of them in a timely fashion though.

Thats the WPF's biggest advantage, single point sizing.

[brdmkr]

NZJake

I appreciate the advice, but I already have the mill and it is not WPM.  I have been studying on that DanG idea that DanG brought up.  I think he may be on to something about raising the log instead of lowering the mill.   I was looking yesterday and I really have A HEAP of those smaller trees.  It will definitely be worth my time to figure out a system to make sawing as efficient as possible.  Any ideas still welcome while I am in the studying  phase.

[DanG]

Hey Mike.  If ya get a free evening, why don't ya bounce up here after work and we'll build a prototype.  I'm thinkin' like a wooden mock-up, just to get more ideas and some dimensions from.  I got some ideas for clamps, but need more brain-power than I seem ta have.  Gimme a call tomorrow.

[scottr]

Dan , I like your idea of raising the log using arches and the lever  . My question is does the swing blade have enough reach to make the bottom cut using two by's as cradles and will it be steady enough without end dogging ?                                                                                                                  Scott

[DanG]

Yep and yep.  The 2x4s would just be clamping what will become the bottom slab.  Hadn't thought about end-dogs.  I think about the only ones using them are the scrag mills.  Might work here, though.  We'll consider it.

[Arthur]

DanG

didnt thinkof that.  Why not use a scrag mill???.  Be very quick with the little logs.

[DanG]

'Cause he's already got a Lucas, and about 3 acres of small pines.   If we build this thing and it works, I'll bring it to Moultrie and let ya try it on the Ecosaw.

[Arthur]

Should work on any swinger.  Good to have extra products that help you cut wood the mills arnt designed for.

little ones are always a problem.  The MiniMill likes them but it still takes about the same time to setup each log.  Difference is the little ones can be picked up.

I tried a couple of 'X' pieces of wood to support the small log a few feet of the ground.  It worked well enough but was a pain to get set right.  I guess I should spend some time working on getting it to work.

Make the 'X' out of 4x1 and a single bolt through the centre.  You then need to wedge the legs into the ground or brace to stop them seperating and collapsing.  By having the small log up off the ground you dont need to bend far and as Im getting older I tend not to want to be bending much.

You should be able to put some sort of dog on this as well.

arthur

[Vermonter]

Another trick for small logs that I have used is a "stair step" set up.  Start with the logs on the lower part of the skids and flatten the top.  You can do three or four at a time.  Fasten a couple of 2" x 6" (6" x 2" for the downunder conversion) pieces on the left side of the skids, and roll the log onto those.  If your blade is 4" over the second skids, you won't have to raise or lower the saw.  This way, the log is topped, then moved up 2" and the other side is cut.  I cut quite a few landscape timbers this way a while back, with just the top and bottom flattened like a log cabin log.
As for the X braces, a friend of mine built a trough to hold 3" x 3" at a 45 degree angle (corner posts for apple boxes).  Very fast.

[Part_Timer]

Vermonter for some reason I can't picture it in my head you got a picture?? I'm a bit slow tonight

[Vermonter]

I posted a drawing to my gallery.   It might make it more clear.  Some of these things are kind of difficult to describe.

[tnlogger]

now that would work and to square it put a square 2x4 on the end of the step and chock it and finish the two other cuts.

[Part_Timer]

I understand now thanks a lot. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Guess I got another stoopid question

  Lets say that when using a swinger, as you PUSH the blade down the log, you are cutting on the "Right hand" side of the blade. When you cross over to do a double cut, you are still cutting on the "Right hand" side of the blade, correct, only in reverse direction ??

  If yer sawing 6" or smaller logs, why can't you space the logs just right, and saw between 2 logs, at the same time.   I know you have to set things up just right, but

[Part_Timer]

I deleted my first post cause i had it backwards sorta so I'll try again

when you cut on the right side pushing away from you your are pushing the saw blade into the cut.  when you cross over you are cutting on the leftside pulling it into the cut. That is why you remove the riving knife and guards. 

when you try to cut between two logs the one on the left is correct but you are pulling on the right side and this is pulling the blade over and away from the cut if you pull fast enough the sawblade will actually push the log away from the blade and it will be riding up on the log not cutting in.

That is clearer than the first try I think???

[Fla._Deadheader]

 I realize that cutting fast means problems. Would this be do-able the way I asked   I was figgerin that the cut pulling into the log might help offset the cut pulling away from the log

  You lock the carriage so it won't drift. You could clamp the logs so they don't move.  Just asking before I get to try the Peterson out and make a mess.

  I gotta cut many acres of small stuff 

[Roxie]

Here are the tree's that Fla. Deadheader is gonna cut! 




Your welcome, Harold, please don't thank me!   

[DanG]

You might have enough power for that when you get the Cummins mounted on it, Harold.  The biggest problem would be the blade spinning the wrong way in one of the cuts, if I unnerstand yer question right.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Why is that a problem The cut would be a little over 4 inches deep

   The straight-line rip saw on the Belsaw Planer cuts in the wrong rotation.  I have sawn boards on a tablesaw feeding from the other side, WITH a hold-down and paying close attention.

  Fred, remember the price of fuel is going up. 

[scottr]

Harold  , I would think that the gullet would not be clear to allow proper feed rate for efficient sawing . Scott

[Arthur]

 PARTS OF THIS POST WERE EDITED OUT BY ADMININSTRATION

MILL MANFACTURERS SHALL LIMIT POSTS TO DESCRIBING THE ACTION OF THIER OWN PRODUCTS. CUTTING DOWN ANOTHER MANUFACTURING METHOD TO PROMOTE YOUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS NOT TOLERATED ON THIS FORUM. 

On the EcoSaw we swing 180 degrees with the blade.  Doing a normal cut you first cut horizontally then swing the blade 90 and come back up the log.  We use two riving knives.  The horizontal cut uses the leftside of the blade and the virtical cut uses the rightside of the blade.

When doublecutting we come back up the log without turning the 90degrees for the virtical.  We are just doing a virtical cut but in the horizontal possition.  NO guards or any part of the mill need to be removed to do any cut you  need.  If you can think of a cut I will tell you how to do it safely without the need for modifications.

You realy should always have the cut pulling into the log.

arthur

[Ernie]

On my twin saw (Rimu)  the only danger area is in front of the mill, I have thrown some really big and heavy chunks that way, particularly when I started into the cut too fast.  If I start slowly until the verticle blade enters and starts to cut, there is no problem.

I have some 6" gum that I want to cut into 4X4's today, I'll let you know if I have any problems