swing blades and small logs

[brdmkr]

Any tips for cutting small logs with a swing blade?  It seems that I read somewhere that you should open the log, then flip and cut the other 3 sides.  It seems to me that the sides may not be parallel if done this way.  I am speaking of really small stuff, about 7 - 8 inches on the small end.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 That's the main reason I bought a Peterson. Logs from 6" & up to 6'. Takes longer to make footage, but, the swingers will cut 'em/ Stack them up in piles of 6 and saw each one as it lays in the pile.

[Tom]

dig a hole with post hole diggers and put them back in the ground.  Maybe they will root and grow up into a saw log. 

I"m afraid you will find that logs that size are a chore on any kind of mill.   I try to have a "cut-off" size of 9" because that will maybe square 6".   

Small logs like that might make decent posts, but  they are usually all immature wood and pith.

Those are the kinds of sticks that a customer will wait until last to give to you and then say,"you can just make some 1x4's out of these." 

[Ianab]

Like the guys say - no real problem cutting small logs, just you have to cut a heck of a lot of them to get a decent stack of boards 
The flipping and cutting method would work as long as your bunks are excatly parrallel to the rails. If you are sawing in a fixed location (concrete pad) then thats easy enough. If you are mobile the bunks are never going to stay exactly in position. Normal sawing it doesn't matter if they are 1/2" out, but with flipping the log it's going to be a pain.
Lining several of them up on the bunks at one time makes things quicker and some more positive  method of clamping down the small logs will help.
I've cut 6" dia cypress logs no problem, but you look at the 6 4"x1"s you recover and think 'Was it really worth it' 

Cheers

Ian

[brdmkr]

I plan on just cutting 4 x 4s, and I am just trying to think of something that will make the work as effecient as possible.  Everything I consider seems like a pretty slow go.

[woodbowl]

Lining several of them up on the bunks at one time makes things quicker and some more positive  method of clamping down the small logs will help.
I've cut 6" dia cypress logs no problem, but you look at the 6 4"x1"s you
recover and think 'Was it really worth it'               Ian, I've seen people saw several small logs side by side on their Lucas. For some reason they left a 6"  space between each log. Is this necessary? Say........ you could dog them all down good and they were all center with the blade, is there any reason why jamming them all together without a space would not work just as well or maybe even better? It just seems that for all the trouble it take to cut a small log, maybe there are some tricks like this to speed up the process. The more logs you can do at one time, the less times you will have to lower the rails.

[Arthur]

Tom

when we first got our pigs it was a quick build a pen now.  I phoned a local who was moving and he gave us the pig as long as we took it that afternoon.

Having an augur on the bobcat I drilled the holes and put up the yard in about 2 1/2 hrs.  We felled some 9" trees close by for the posts and had them in the ground within minutes of felling.

8 weeks later most had started growing.  We broke most new growth off which killed those but had a few we missed and 3 years on they are still growing.

arthur

[Tom]

That's funny.

We have some hardwoods here that you have to be careful of using green for posts or they will root.

It' s funny that the most posts that I've seen root have been in, or around, pig pens. 

[Arthur]

Tom

At least with the poles rooting the pigs have some shade.  All the trees carfully selected to give shade inside the pens are now dead or dying!!!  The pigs seem to have killed them somehow.

arthur

[Ianab]

Ian, I've seen people saw several small logs side by side on their Lucas. For some reason they left a 6"  space between each log. Is this necessary? Say........ you could dog them all down good and they were all center with the blade, is there any reason why jamming them all together without a space would not work just as well or maybe even better? It just seems that for all the trouble it take to cut a small log, maybe there are some tricks like this to speed up the process. The more logs you can do at one time, the less times you will have to lower the rails.

Two problems I can see there...
If the logs were tapered the outside ones wouldn't be straight with the mill anymore. Being an inch offline on small logs is really going to hit your recovery percentage 
Also the normal 'notch in the bunks' holding system wouldn't work (the logs will be different sizes). You would need some sort of adjustable dogging system. I dont think it would be worth it because of problem 1.

By having 3 sets of notches each log is lined up correctly and supported irregardless of size or taper.

Ian

[woodbowl]

Ian
    That answers all those questions. Thanks..........................Now I am looking toward the next phase of a hair brain idea. Lets say your swinger is set up on a trolly and able to move laterally down an endless line up up logs. These logs are positioned on a fixed bed, doged in place and paralell with the blade. Now the mill is not limited to the space within the frames but rather a range as long as the trolly permits. Positioning new logs and removing last slabs can be done ahead and behind the operation, thus allowing to sawyer to continue an uninterrupted  rythum. I've seen the ASM work at Moultrie last year. It is awsome in big logs..............This is an attempt to configure a situation that will allow  high yeild production even on small logs using a swingblade. The question is: Using the average mean diameter of 8"-10" X 8', what is your speculation of production in a 6 hour time period?

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Requires a LOT of helpers 

  MIGHT be selling the parts for the Homeswinger if yer interested. 

[Arthur]

woodbowl

we do this for high production with medium to large logs.  We replace the feet on our mills with heavy duty 4" wheels which fit into a C section fixed into the floor of the factory.  These feet have locks/brakes on them to lock the mill in location.

A crew of 5 running two setups like this work most efficiently.  Two per mill and one running the fork lift, etc.

The fifth man removes and clears the milling area while the milling team are onto the next log.  He then sets up the next log and removes any completed packs to the sawn timber processing area away from the mills.  As soon as the current log has been finished its unlock the brakes and slide the mill over and start milling again.

On an average 8 hr day they produce 3cu M per man of sawn timber.  They have 10 working 4 mills and produce as much high quality boards as the traditional mill next door to me with 20 men working just making pallets.

arthur

[woodbowl]

Well......................I guess I can chock that up for another good idea that I reinvented without knowing it.   Now I've got to figure out how many board feet are in a cubic meter.  Have you got that stainless steel eco ready for Moultrie yet? We're looking forward to seeing you all.

[Dan_Shade]

roughly 423 board feet to the cubic meter

stupid metric system 

[Vermonter]

If you're just making 4x4's, flatten the top of a bigger log and leave a lip on the right.  Lay a small log on top, and run a couple of screws into the lower log, one on each end of the log.   Flatten the top and slice the sides.  by snugging it up against the lip, I can often get away with flipping it over, lowering to 4", and flattening the last side without replacing the screws.  I like the strong-tie timber screws with the 1/4" heads.   They're easier to see.  Still slow, but adds up.
I like sawing siding from small softwood logs, flatten the top and only get one drop.  Better yield, and you can trash the slab that has all the grooves.  I screw those down too.  Yes, I hit a screw once.  Any club for that?

[Arthur]

roughly 423 board feet to the cubic meter

stupid metric system

Only the USA and Canada are left using the NON-METRIC system.  The rest of the world requires metric.  Most containers and freight is done by metric.  You dont send 1000 board foot of stone or beef, etc,etc,etc.

Dont know about your sales of wood in the USA though.  How do you by your 2" x 4". by the linial or board foot???

I know some of the older folks here still talk super foot.

[Arthur]

Well......................I guess I can chock that up for another good idea that I reinvented without knowing it. Now I've got to figure out how many board feet are in a cubic meter. Have you got that stainless steel eco ready for Moultrie yet? We're looking forward to seeing you all.

Lindsay has the 35hp fully fuctional, this will be at the Moultrie show.  He has only just got back and has been busy getting all the info he can out of me for the MiniMill.  I have one working here and have sent pics to him so he can do the same in canada.  You should see some pics from him by the weekend.

MiniMill should be at Moultrie just dont know if Lindsay will take one or if I will bring one as hand laugage.  Current all up weight so far is only 90kg but im trying to reduce this further.

arthur

[robotguy]

brdmr; your post says you are only going to make 4x4,s  using a swing blade. there are two sites you might look at that may give you some more info on small diamiter stems milling.
 
whittler 2 ;  if you do an archives search here on the F.F. you will find there web site & phone #  the mill is portable & is designed for small diamiter *stems*, & made in oroville WA. there e-mail address is on the web site but e-mails come back as undeliverable & the ph# is incorrect . you could call information & run the names showing on the w-site,, might get lucky & get a contact.
the stem is ran thru a pair of chipper blades fitted with planner knives to get two sides, next the stem is ran thru a set of saw blades or three depending on what you are cutting  4 x 4 or 2 x 4 / it appears that the middle blade can be moved in & out of the path of the stem for this. there w-site states they can cut  4x4 5x5x & 6 x 6 in any configuration needed.

hegsaw;  the mill i belive is made & finland & is very,,, very ,,, nice. there web side has a lot of info & there is an e-mail form for more info if needed , the mill runs the whole stem/log  bark & all & chipps & saws all at once , the way they process it is remarkable & i think the speed is 175,feet/min .
i found the chipper blades realy unique and have not seen anything like that for de-barking a log/stem.

the post by arthur dyason was very interesting . if i am getting this right you line up a row of stems & *mill as you go* moving down the row . really good idea there. 

queston; have you researched a market for the 4x4,s ??

are you going to use softwood or hard wood or both. ??

there is a recent post her on grading & certifying privatly cut wood  vrs wood from a mill, have you found a answer for that or will it be needed with your 4x4,s

is your wood source going to be private or public lands or both, & have you determinded the average stems per acre /vrs costs.

are you going to mill on site or transport the stems to a mill site.

as you may have guessed i also am interested in small diamiter stem milling  however i have not found a suitable cost effective way to mill them so far

woodmizer has a bolt-on attachment that allows you to position several stems on there mill & make a pass then rotate 90 degrees & repeate the process , i dont know if that is cost effective & am unknowledgeable on how a swing blade could be maximized to do what you want . however the F.F. has a wealth of info & lots of wisdom.     

i have a idea (foresty forum brainstorm???) bouncing around in the brain upstairs and a skeleton prototype in the garage. however nothing concrete & no wood sawn yet.
 i build robotics as an hobby (i.e. robots the size of a ford f150 pick-up) and see a future for this in the forestry industry for small stem/log harvesting & processing where larger machines (forwarders & harvesters)  are not cost effective to use. 

[woodbowl]

Robotguy,
   I believe you are right! Here in the SE the writing is all over the wall. There is so much fast growing pine. The mills have geared up to accept small diameter and now they won't take anything over 27". I run into big dia of course but I custom saw and it mainly comes from peoples yards. I am concerned because I sometimes have to turn down small dia jobs because I can't make any money. I too have been looking long and hard at spitting out lumber from small logs but using a portable mill. The key is in the tech. Make a smart mill that is so simple that it proclaims loudly "of course, why didn't I think of that long ago". Is the WM attachment of an end dog configuration?