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Author Topic: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction  (Read 4631 times)

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Offline Buzz-sawyer

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2005, 01:28:35 pm »
The big mills........otherwise nothing
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Offline Don P

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2005, 12:03:41 am »
"When a DOC Voluntary Product Standard is made a part of a legal document, such as a sales contract or code, compliance with the standard is enforceable."

2.1 Accreditation—Procedure by which an authorita-tive
body gives formal recognition that a body or per-son
is competent to carry out specific tasks.
6.2.6]

"Producers, distributors, users, consumers, and other
interested groups contribute to the establishment of
DOC Voluntary Product Standards. These groups
initiate and participate in the development of the
standards, provide technical or other counsel as appropriate, promote the use of and support for the standards,
and assist in keeping them current with respect
to advancing technology and marketing practices."
Office of Standards Services, National Institute of
Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-
2150.


This is a link to SPIB's visually graded services web page;
 http://www.spib.org/vglumber.shtml?/lumberservices.
Arky, how many sawyers could you get together for 4 days?
If they won't allow you training, TP would probably be glad to bring a program to you. Their stamp is on as much SYP as SPIB's here, they let me train there and took my money happily. I did find myself in the HD that was beside my motel while I was at the grading school. An armload of their 2x4's came into the class the next day.  :D

 I think we should be trained...so should they. Wood does just happen to be the major structural element in most construction...grading education oughta be readily available to anyone pretty easily. Small producers and inspectors should have the same training as the "big boys". If the inspector asks for a judgement call, then third party auditing by one of the grading agencies could be called to come in.  If everyone is trained I kinda think its a non-issue.

All stress grading for knots is done the same in concept from what I was taught. It doesn't really matter the species or size, how you look at a piece of wood is the same, look inside the piece of wood as you grade. Find the worst defect. Almost all branches stem from the heart.  You visualize the knot displacement within the cross section of the piece of wood. Looking at all 4 faces, figuring out where the pith was. Knowing where the pith was in relation to the knots you see on any face. You can see where each branch is going, how much clear straight grained wood remains around the stick of weak branch that either passes through the timber or stops at the pith within it. Based on how much good wood is displaced by the knots, their size and location, according to the grade rules for that wood, a grade for the knots in the piece can be determined. If thats the worst defect that piece of wood has, that's the grade. The old timers rule of thumb is quarter, third , half ...#1,#2,#3.

To make a span table for dimensional lumber or to calculate a single beam's load and span, you take the grade (the proportion of good wood you have) and species of wood and look up the allowable design values. Those variables account for the different strength properties of each species. If you look at the design values for the different grades in every species, those strength values drop by about 1/4, 1/3, 1/2...basically how you look into wood and grade is the same, the design values account for the differences in size or species.

Anyone can petition the board of review of ALSC to become a grading agency, FF or SSMU could petition for that, I think it costs about $100,000 by the time its all done and said from what one biased source told me. There are several agencies that are former employees of other agencies who went out on their own...so it can be done, might be worth checking into. For small mills self grading and educated inspectors is the way I'd like to see it go, this isn't rocket science.

If anyone has some kind of span tables for appalachian hardwoods, I'd sure like to have some. I'm in a real weak position there, "official" hardwood span tables, graderules anything like that would go a real long way.



Offline Don P

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2005, 09:23:08 pm »
The regional head of the inspectors did question the authorship of my table, and asked if something was available from AFPA or AWPA

I did find this span calculator online at the AFPA website. It does put out longer spans than my table.
http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp

I was just using base design values, trying to keep it simple. The adjustment factors it uses do bump up the allowable spans quite a bit  8).

I was thinking back and did mis-speak. The reason we are only having a 1 day class here is that TP will only do a 1 day "introduction to lumber grading" on the road. The 4 day class is only available at their site in GA. The other time is more in depth knot and defect lessons, a tour of the lab and seeing how samples get tested (and breaking a few) and being tested at the end. I'll post how the 1 day class goes. We will end up with the same literature (rule books and pocket guides) as the 4 day class. I'll try to find out what this whole deal cost the state. If it goes well maybe have TP do a FF class sometime? Its a shame this wasn't part of shop class or drafting class in high school.

Offline DanG

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2005, 11:12:37 am »
Not sure if Don P has already posted this link, so I'll put it up again.  Looks like some pretty good tables to keep handy.

http://www.southernpine.com/spantables.shtml
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Offline Frank_Pender

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2005, 02:59:01 pm »
I will be meeting near the end of Sept. with the folks I spoke of earlier.  I would appreciate it if one and all would send me short specific ideas on how something might be established.   Personal message, or bettte yet direct e-mail me with ideas and then I can print them off and have them available when I attend the first meeting.

    thank you,   in advance. 8)
Frank Pender

Online beenthere

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2005, 04:06:41 pm »
Can someone venture to put up an objective as to what is the desire (need)?

This thread started with sawing lumber for ones own home. Is that still the intent on what might be 'established'?

Or is it now establishing another 'agency' to grade lumber for construction use and sell it in competition with the lumber yards including the box stores, so then consideration of how to compete against the established agencies is needed.

south central Wisconsin
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Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2005, 04:12:19 pm »

 Little guys would find it VERY tough to compete with the box stores. The gist of the latter part of this thread is to help sawmill folks to get to use their own lumber for Home structural purposes, including BEAMS that the box stores don't handle.

  If I was stayin in the US, I would get involved BIG TIME. The present situation STINKS.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Offline Don P

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2005, 09:04:34 pm »
I hope that isn't the reason you're leaving Harold, this is still about the best place I've seen   ;D

 
Quote
This thread started with sawing lumber for ones own home
I think that was before I hijacked it  :-[...sorry guys, you can sure tell when I got a bee in my bonnet  ::)

This link shows how NH is doing it, sounds reasonable to me
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XL/434/434-59.htm

Notice that it references DOC PS20-70. I think we're up to PS20-95 or something close, that thing keeps changing slightly too. We do have input that NIST listens to.

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2005, 09:08:28 pm »

 DonP, I happen to agree with you. Hijacking a thread occasionally, for a good cause, is a GOOD thing, maybe  ::) ;D

  It's getting very difficult to afford to live in Florida. If I had some rich relatives, or was 20 years younger, I would probably stay.

  I've been known to speak my mind a time or two.  ::) ::) :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
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   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Offline brdmkr

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2005, 10:18:33 pm »
Don

NH seems to have a law that is reasonable.  My primary interest is in being able to use my own lumber in my house.  I still have not had time to investigate what is acceptable and what is not in the state of GA.

However, the thread does seem to have take a different direction.  I think that the points that you and others have made are excellent.  I encourage you to do what you can.  Personally, I think graders should be certified and subject to losing their license if they are not honest and consistently able to grade accurately.  They should not be required to be fastened at the hip to a mill and their grade should suffice to meet the requirements of buildling codes.  I even think that continuing education requirements could be placed on graders.  Mills could have a stamp identifying the mill.  The grader could stamp as to species and grade along with some ID that is unique to the grader.

Of course, I admit that I don't know much in this area. (drastic understatement).  I do think the current system is not fair for smaller mills.

My .02 ( and it may not be worth that :o)
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Online beenthere

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2005, 10:38:41 pm »
Don P
 :) The trend in this thread didn't bother me. It just seemed to be growing into something beyond the original interest, which I would like to see addressed (NH seems to have been able to address it quite well). 

Maybe similar intitial steps (state level acceptance of local lumber in building codes), that also seem to include the direction Arky has moved with his stamp, are what's needed to get a program moving. Then, possibly the need will expand to other building markets supplied with local lumber.  That seems to be your area of excitement as well as Frank Penders. I admit to being a bit in awe of what it will take to Get-R-Dun.
south central Wisconsin
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Offline Chris Burchfield

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2005, 06:51:33 pm »
One of the main functions of the ALSC is to maintain the American Softwood Lumber Standard (Voluntary Product Standard PS 20).  The current edition is PS 20-99. This web site provides good information: http://www.alsc.org/untreated_ps20_mod.htm . The PS 20-99 can be accessed there in adobe format. Hope this helps.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2005, 08:11:20 pm »
I appreciate you all's responses and am glad. I have smacked others upside the head on occasion while flailing at that bee...it wasn't intended  :).

Just an update from my end, I did send the NH link to our regional chairman of the building officials. He's the one putting our class together. He is comfortable with the spancalc on the AFPA website. He found the NH law interesting, copied it for his records, asked if I would be presenting it at the class and offered to print copies for everyone attending.
He then asked if I had a delegate in mind to present it to the state legislature and if I had researched VA law to see if there is anything similar.
I think the delegate that got me this far is gonna hear from me again, I've kept him "in the loop" as things have been progressing, good guy. When I originally discussed this issue with my local inspectors they told me to talk to him as we had similar feelings.

I find it real hard to maintain an us vs. them attitude when they're so DanG helpful  8). Many of these guys seem to be rooting for us, we're all in this together. The big shots in Washington were trying to help everyone out and standardize the industry. The building codes wrote that standardization into the code in stronger and stronger language as time passed. Lawyers learned how to shift blame onto those building officials charged with enforcing the code. Inspectors began to enforce the letter of the code instead of the spirit. The basic idea of grading is good, I agree with it, and has pretty much worked, I don't think the big shots in government even know their big toe landed on some good little folk.

 I have seen few laws expand freedom and so have mixed emotions about proposing a law. Some people who had more lenient inspectors may now find themselves having to train before their inspector will let them do what they were doing before...I hope they take it in stride and view it as continuing education  :-\.

 


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