Logger wants to use my mill?

[Kirk_Allen]

A local logger who has been having his wood cut by an Amish sawyer is either going to buy a mill or would prefer to use mine, at my site for a rental fee.

Main downside to this is Liability. Without being able to get liability insurance I dont see any way to let someone use the mill, unless a liability realease can be drawn up, which I dont hold much faith in.

He asked if I could cut his logs but I told him my rates are going to be about the same as what he is paying now.  His dilema with the Amish guy is he only cuts the loggers logs when he feels like it. The logger has about 5,000 bf of logs at the Amish mill now and they have not been touched for three weeks.  He has everthing cut into pallet stringers are ties. 

What would be some of your opinoins of the pitfalls of letting him use my mill on my site, other than the liability issues. If I do this I would draft a contract that covers damage to the mill etc.  I am here most of the time anyway but something is itchen me to move forward with this.  Not sure what but I think it could lead into more stuff.

[Jeff]

No way would I loan a mill out. Just start thinking up the countless svenarios in your head.

[Kirk_Allen]

I would NEVER let the mill leave my property.  What I was thinking was to let him use it only on days when I am home, which for the most part is 7 days a week. The few times Im on the road he would just have to wait till I got back.

One thing that came to mind is to cut on shares    Dont think he would go for it but if I cut his wood in exchange for half of it I would come out way ahead by simply cutting ties. 

Lots to ponder but it boils down to time.  I have created a need in the area and I cant fill it without more time. 

Another local is coming over Monday to pick me up and take me to his woods to get an estimate on what he has to cut.  He said he cut the Osage fence line in December and wants the hedge cut into posts.  Said most of the hedge are 20 foot straight as an arrow and around 24" DIB.  Lots of Sugar Maple and a few Oaks. 

I need more time................or a career shift 

[Tom]

I'm selfish and want all the hours on my mill to be mine.  Why pass all of that fun on to someone else who has no reason to take care of the saw?  Do you need a partner?  That would be the only way, short of a tight lease, that it may work.  If he has an interest in the saw, he may appreciate having the equipment.

After a couple of years of using up your saw, where does he go next?

Who is responsible for maintenance, blades, damage, injury and housekeeping?  Will he be using the equipment when you have a job you have to get out?


I think you are better off doing the work yourself.  If he has to wait, like he waits for his other sawyer, then that is just the way the cookie crumbles.  His options are to use your services or buy his own mill.

[Buzz-sawyer]

I guess I could buy a place on your side of the state then commute?.........Pal you got more ideas and oppertunities than 3 fellas can handle right now.....AND I am glad cause you can pick and choose what ya want!
I dont even let people near my mill...or offbear it.
I just dont want them around it to screw it up or get themselves a twisted ankle....
I wouldnt consider letting someone operate my equipment unless he was a close personal friend that I felt was confident...under my direct supervision.

[Rockn H]

Well, since he is mostly wanting pallet stock, it doesn't seem like he would be competing with you for any business if he bought his own mill.  Reminds me of when we had a restaurant a few years back.  We had a few little old ladies that ate like a bird so we started itimizing their buffet.  Something like .80 for peas and .50 for a roll instead of the $5.49 for a regular buffet.  Problem was everybody got the drift and wanted to itimize.    Well .80 for a platefull of peas don't work.  We had to stop, and the ladies got mad and went to the other restaurant.  You know they wouldn't itimize either.  Wasn't long before the ladies came back and things settled down.  The thing is, if you do something for one customer, you run the risk of making the others mad. 

[Brad_S.]

I have to echo the others. I'll let someone test drive it while I stand there and watch, but to hand over the keys and walk away, uh-uh.

Besides all the maintenance questions Tom outlined, I remember the hurt I put on my first mill learning it's operation and limitations and wouldn't subject any other mills I own to that.

Sell him your mill and get that 70 you've been lusting after!

[Buzz-sawyer]

Chances are he is paying ...5-10 cents for blocking...but MAY be dragging it out for free.....As you have seen Kirk good logs are left to rot around here.
THEN he pays to haul it out and to his place...ADD 10-15 cents a board foot, then hire to cut it....20 cents.....
Most blocking/ties sells for 30-45 cents.....
He aint makin much unless he is turning some serious vollume!

[Corley5]

I wouldnt consider letting someone operate my equipment unless he was a close personal friend that I felt was confident...under my direct supervision.

Well said   My feelings exactly

[beenthere]

Like Rockn H said, 'When the word gets out...' Kirk will have likely more than one person hauling in logs to 'saw' and play on his mill.

I get requests to use my tractor, but I won't let someone else use it.     I will have to do it, and then if something breaks, it is 'my fault' and I have no one else to blame. Otherwise, it amounts to hard feelings, and hurt feelings, from my experience.
 Unless they are a very,very good friend that I trust......and I feel I met a few of them at the Piggyroast who I would have enough trust in to operate my tractor, and some (maybe one or two  ), even my chainsaw. 

[Rod]

I allways thought a rental company could make lots off money renting out sawmills.

[Buzz-sawyer]

beenthere.....
HI FRIEND!

[Ron Wenrich]

Have you ever seen equipment that is run by the hired help?  Their job is at stake, and they still hammer the equipment.  Its not the damage that you see right away, its those little things that start to add up. 

I've sawn on mills owned by other people for all my sawing days.  But, I've got a pretty good reputation of not being an equipment abuser.  Take a look at the loggers equipment, and you'll get a good idea how he treats his equipment. 

He's also sawing low grade logs.  They generally aren't as straight, have more knots and turn a whole lot harder than a nice, striaight sawlog.  Lots of abuse potential right there.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Hey Kirk,

Here is what I see "between the lines:"

Your logger friend will pay you to do the work, if you just do it.
I have faced the same problem.  When I get far behind with my
slow Chainsaw Mill and need a band to clean up the excess and
be done with it,  I can't get them to do it.  (Of course, the best local
sawyer I know is usually just so busy that he can't get to me for weeks
at a time.  Good problem for him to have, huh?)

If you will simply say,  "I can't do that (let him use the mill),
but I will cut it when you need it cut.  Try me a few times and see."

I believe he will give you that try; then it's up to your dependability.

Phil L.

[SwampDonkey]

The one thing we've experienced around here is that when she comes back, or the next time we use it, it never works like it did before it was on loan. My father was always loaning tractors and equipment to my uncle and it was most always returned broken. It was real apparent when we stopped lending stuff that his operation was on a downward spiral.

[beenthere]

Buzz
HI FRIEND! 

[Kirk_Allen]

Well it looks like the FF comes through with some great input again!  I am going to throw a couple options at him and see what happens.

1. I will sell him my mill and upgrade to the Super 40 or 70
2. I will offer to cut his logs and get them done when he needs them. 

I like option #1 the best 

[Frickman]

I've had local loggers want to rent my mill over the years. That's why they still build new ones, so they can buy their own.

[Arthur]

I wouldnt hire.

If you do charge an over the top price and make sure they buy their own blades,etc. as well as a signed agreement for repair of any breakage.

You should also make sure they sign a waiver for liability otherwise you will be liable when someone or something gets damaged.

arthur

[oakiemac]

A guy called the house the other day and said that he wanted to rent my mill. My son told him that sure he could rent it but that his dad comes with it.
I think he is a smart boy.

[Sawyerfortyish]

I let a guy run my firewood processor part time for one week. It only cost about 1200.00 to fix it after that week and he split 10 cords of wood at 120.00. It took about two weeks to get it running like it did before he started running it.  If I lend my equipment to anyone (I couldn't find an @ss kicking smiley in all those smileys )I would expect to have it kicked.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Only so much help and only so many days in the hour.  Your logger will find if he buys a mill that he can not run it and log at the same time.  Either the mill or logging equipment will set idle thus not making money.  Or he will have to hire more help which will not know how to saw and waste lumber and tear up equpiment.  Pallet stock is a market of pennies.
   I would offer to saw for him and charge a bit less for blocking and ties then 4/4 stock.  But the thing you will have to consider is the waste problem.  You do not have a holler to throw it all into and when you start shucking a couple thousand feet aday several days a week you will make a pile fast.  Also there is hauling and paying.  He hauls in and hauls out and pays when it leaves the site.  Next is building and loader which you will need.  Coin and time for that.  Then when you are all geared up and going good he will go back to the Amish guy becuase it is a cash deal and the price of sawing dropped 2 cents per bdft. 
   Now I have gone to large mills several times to saw for them.  I set up out of the way and they bring the logs to me and haul off the lumber and slabs there at their site.  I just saw and make piles of lumber like they want.  On Friday I get paid the tally and come back on Monday.  Maybe you should go to his place and have him furnish a helper and loader while you just saw for him.  Do a couple days a week and get paid and leave the mess and lumber laying for him to mess with.  That is why they put wheels under them little Orange machines.

[Kirk_Allen]

Arky you make some great points..........as usual!  Thanks.

He is going to stop by again sometime this week and I will throw that out to him.  I get the impression from speaking with him that part of the issue he is having with the other guy is trust.  As most of us do, if a blade is damaged its $20.  In the last 6 months this guy has charged him for 15 blades.  When he has asked to see the blade the guy cant show them to him becuase he has already set and sharpened them. 

I told him a simple solution to that is buy his own blades and send them to WM for the resharp program. 

If I hit something and know I can fix the blade I rarely will charge the full $20.  Just depends on how bad of a hit it is.  That being said, if this logger is cutting everything into stringers and ties I am betting the logs are less than desireable and may very well be from some fence line that a farmer is clearing so he can plant 5 more feet of corn 

[DanG]

Go ahead and tell him he can use the mill....in exchange for the use of his logging equipment.  You could get a lot of your projects outta tha way with his feller-buncher and skidder.  'Course you'll need the lowboy and the delimber and the loader, too.  You won't be needing them but a few weeks, and by that time, he might have figgered out how to saw with your Woodmizer.

Make that offer to him, and he'll start singing a different song, I bet.

[jimbo]

  some things i want loan out  to any one  . tools ,trailors ,guns , wife

[fstedy]

Kirk
You are right on with option #1 and #2 plus the ideas from Arky eliminate your problem of getting rid of the waste wood also it saves the logger money from having to transport to your site. Business is Business he's a logger and you're a sawyer. Never lend equipment its a no win situation you will end up with hard feelin's at best or a lost customer and friend.

[Buzz-sawyer]

If you are getting the belsaw, would that be a option for this type of cutting?.......You could use the speed to slam out tiesand afford to charge17-18 cents and crack out some bd ft .
I havent run on of those belsaws, but I would think alone you ought to produce 2000-3000 bdft a day with proper set up.
2000 bdft a day is $360.@18 cents.

He gets about 800 bucks for ties.....and you have to cut about forty ties.

So, if you can square one up in twelve minutes that is an eight hour day.

I think if I lived where you do ...with access to all those tops left in the woods, I would get a truck and cut 'em in the woods and haul ties straight to the plant. Most plants add one dollar per tie for transportation fee.
If you hauled eighty ties that load would net about $1840

[etat]

Go ahead and tell him he can use the mill....in exchange for the use of his logging equipment.  You could get a lot of your projects outta tha way with his feller-buncher and skidder.  'Course you'll need the lowboy and the delimber and the loader, too.  You won't be needing them but a few weeks, and by that time, he might have figgered out how to saw with your Woodmizer.

Make that offer to him, and he'll start singing a different song, I bet. 

   

 

[OneWithWood]

Kirk,
Much good advice has been put forth.  I can only add this - if you lend out your mill, he or one of his employees will be milling and you won't.  Think about it 

[leweee]

My wife.....Yes....(don't have one )
My dog..... maybe
My gun,chainsaws,sawmill......NEVER

[oldschoolmiller]

Unless you are standing over his shoulder i would say no, but i guess it all boils down to the $$
If he is paying enough for you to stand there all day, and is responsible for the maintenance, then i guess it would be OK 

[Kedwards]

I would say NO! nicely of course    I have had people ask the same thing to me and its always no go buy one. If they decide to buy one they ALWAYS try and take a whole day of my time to figure out which one is best for them I tell them my consulting rate is the same as my sawing rate. This has really helped quell with the eager beaver syndrome to muscle in on the sawing action using my knowledge and time.