Rail road tie sawing seminar in south east Michigan

[oakiemac]

I recieved a pamphlet from the DNR about a seminar that they are putting on in Whitemore lake, Michigan which is near Ann Arbor. The seminar looks pretty interesting and covers everything from log grading to the economics of rr tie sawing. There will be a sawmill demo and some actual hands on. Apparently the DNR is trying to find uses for the Ash that is being taken out due to the EAB.
I am planning on attending if anyone needs more info let me know. The date is August 23.

[Teddles]

Hey Oakiemac

Sounds interesting. Can you give us some more details? Or is there a website?

[jpad_mi]

Oakiemac,  I'd be interested in checking it out. Is it during the day, or in the evening. I'll PM you my email address; please send me some more info. Thanks in advance!

[oakiemac]

The seminar is during the day from 8am to 4pm. I left the info some where else so I'll have to post more info this evening.
I don't believe there is a website.

[oakiemac]

There is a website-www.semircd.org/ash

seminar outline:

Marketing opps and resource supply
log spec
overview of tie treating buisness
sawmill layout and ops
sawing ties
tie and lumber specs and grading
feasibility of sawing ties
log scaling and grading
sawmill demo
tie inspection
\
For more info you can call Jessica Simons 734-761-6722 ext105

[farmerdoug]

I signed up for the seminar.  Who else is going besides Oakiemac?

Farmerdoug

[jpad_mi]

I registered myself and my brother Brad. See you there!

Jeff

[TN_man]

Let us know what you guys learn. It sounds interesting.

[oakiemac]

Just got back from the seminar. Had a great time. Met FarmerDoug and jpad and his brother. The FF was well represented and I talked with a few other sawyers about the FF.

Things I learned in no particular order:
-The WM LT 70 with Cat diesel is a cool mill.
-Cutting RR ties can possibly be a profitable enterprise. I still need to crunch the numbers and figure a few things out. But a tie buyer was there and he showed us the ins and outs of tie making. They pay $18.75 for a 8'8" 7X9 tie and they will send out a truck to pick them up when you have about 200 ready. sounds like it could be a good deal for low grade logs.
-The EAB is nasty bug. I saw a lot of logs that were from dead Ash. This could be a huge problem in the US and Canada.\
-I need to spend more time figuring out cost, sawing times. material cost, labor and things like this to get a better grip on profitability or the lack thereof.
-There are a lot of small part time mill operators out there. Many more than on the forum. Most of them are pretty good guys.
-Those band millls spit out a very fine saw dust that likes to get into your coffee.

All in all, a good class and a good time.

[Bro. Noble]

We like sawing ties.  Even with good clear butt logs,  by the time you get down to 7X9 we are usually starting to run into defects.  Even the 6X8 ties at a little over $10 beats sawing them into pallet boards if you don't have a better market  You can also sell a lot of species for which there may not be a grade lumber market

[jpad_mi]

I really enjoyed the seminar. It was a great learning experience for a newbie like me. We looked at sawn ties and reviewed the Railroad Tie Association grading rules for each of the types of defects. They also touched on lumber grading, sawed a couple of logs, and reviewed the flitches for grade and to demonstrate how the defects move through the log.

It was nice to meet Oakiemac and FarmerDoug. They were great guys.

Oh, an interesting note : the number of RR ties needed by the RR Industry is expected to grow by 6% annually for the next 5yrs.

[oakiemac]

Bro Noble, what species does your tie buyer take?
The guy we talked to wants oak, hickory, ash, hard maple, hackberry, gum, cherry, walnut. Oak is by far the biggest tie material he said.
I was hoping to be able to use elm because we have a lot of dead elm in my area but they wont take the stuff.

As a side note any ash tie has to be 100% wane free if it comes from michigan and if it comes from a quarantine county then it has to have certification paper work with it.

[farmerdoug]

I enjoyd the Seminar too.  J_Pad and Oakiemac are great guys too.

I invited the tie buyer to log onto the forum and give everyone here a heads up on his tie buying and answer questions about ties too.  He gave us all booklets on the RTA tie specs that are pretty self explianiory.  He then showed us pics on the crap that mills send him and try to call then ties.  He pics up the shipping so they waste both his time and money.

Oakiemac, the RTA does allow elm but Webster does not buy it so I think that there maybe some that will.  The RTA allowable species are listed on the back of the second sheet of the folder that Jeremy gave us.

I also invited Rusty from the US Forest Service to log on with us too.  They can offer assistance with just about any questions from growing trees to sawing lumber.  They have offered lumber and log grading classes where we were and The Game of Logging also.  If they have enough interest they will do it again too.

Jeff B,
Rusty told me that they believe that the EAB could have been here since 1990 and that many of the hotspots popping up were already infected before the quarantine was implemented like you suggested.

Farmerdoug

[Bro. Noble]

Oakiemac,

When we first started selling ties,  the buyer told us they would take any hardwood except hackberry.  At the time we were cleaning off some pasture land and cut quite a few persimmon and sassafrass ties along with the oak,  hickory,  and sycamore that we usually cut.  They never complained about any species we cut until one winter we cut a bunch of trash trees from the river bottom.  After several loads,  they asked that we not bring anymore red maple,  box elder,  or elm.   

Sometimes they buy SYP ties,  but they are a little differenyt in their length and a little lower in price.

[oakiemac]

I think they will buy sycamore ties but he said the sycamore has a lot of ring shake generally and that causes problems. I don't know about sassafras, course I don't see too much of that stuff around here.

[Bro. Noble]

Shake is a problem with sycamores here also-----especially the older ones.  Shake ,  rot,  and big knots aren't allowed no matter the species.

[Kirk_Allen]

Any one have the contact information for getting one of those tie grading or spec books they handed out?

[oakiemac]

Kirk,
send me your address and I'll send you copies of the info. It includes the tie buyer and his phone number. He is very interested in buying as many ties as he can get his hands on.

[Buzz-sawyer]

The Union Pacific specs are good but the national gold standard is .......
Railway Tie Association and
the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance of Way Association,
I sent ya a copy.
Every singe buyer out there will have different specs and species , which can change due to demand and thier buyers current specs.I.E 75% oak and hickory 25% mixed hardwoods.

[Ron Wenrich]

We have been sawing ties for nearly 25 years.  They pay us $1 extra for oak vs the mixed hardwoods.  We can also send a 7x8 tie.  Our buyer will also buy 8' ties. 

They will take anything except tulip poplar, aspen and anything that is deemed too soft.  I've snuck in a few ailanthus.  Sycamore, elm , beech, maple, ash, sassafras, oak and about anything else we can throw in.

Also, look into switch ties.  10' stock doesn't pay much, but we saw up to 22'.  The long ones were fetching $750/Mbf.

Things to remember about doing costs.  A 7x9 tie will saw down to a 4x6 cant and 16 +/- bf of lumber.  If you are getting $380/Mbf for blocking, your blocking is worth about $6.  You have to make $12.50 in 16 bf just to break even.  1 Com red oak is down to $625/Mbf and 2 Com is $500.  Pull one board that is below grade, and you lost money.  Better to keep it in a tie.