Decisons..

[woodbeard]

I went ahead and started a new thread for this, but it's really kinda a continuation of this one: http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=13389.0

I have narrowed my search down to two mills, both used, both WM lt40. One is manual, with the log deck packace, the other is hydraulic, and would run about $120/month more in payments. If I were sawing full time, this would be a no-brainer- 3 more hours sawing per month. Even sawing part time like I will be doing, it seems quite feasable, but I am wondering if there are other operating costs/headaches that come along with a hyd. mill that I am not seeing? The hyd. mill also has a debarker, which will save me some $ in blade costs, but how much? It's a sweet deal, and I'd kinda hate to pass it up, but I'm already a bit nervous taking on more debt as it is. I wonder if I might just be better off with the manual version. Simpler is sometimes better, but does that hold true in this case?  With the loading ramps/winch and toeboards, it is still a big step ahead of where I am now. It meets all of my basic criteria, but when I think of all that hydraulic gear....       Am I just dreaming, or what? 

[Tom]

My mill was a  hydraulic and I wouldn't have done anything different, especially once I started working it. 

You are still a young fellow and willing to mindlessly "attack" laborious jobs.  But, the time will soon com when you will be glad that you have a hyraulic loader and turner.  Believe me, they are worth their weight in gold.

You may begin sawing more than you are now.  If you do, you will have a lot more profit potential witht he hyrraulic mill.

There are some maintenance overhead's that aren't on a manual mill.  The hydraulics are over electric and that means brushes and switches.  You will get used to it and just consider it part of the system.  The design hides the hoses pretty good and you won't be breaking them.  The most vulnerable are the loader hoses.  You just learn to be careful.

If you are close enough that it is difficult decision between the manual and hydraulic, as far as economics,  Don't even hesitate.  Get the hydraulic mill.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Gotta agree with Tom. We wood be blowed up without Hydraulics. If you have never tried to roll a large log, especially uphill, you will love the Hydraulics.

  Can't even imagine how long it wood take to put a 24" Oak log up a ramp, by hand or hand winch.

[Don R]

I don't think there is any question here. If you buy the manual mill, you will always be regretting not having the hydraulics. If you buy the hydraulic you will make the extra payments, because you have to. you won't have to work any harder the hydraulics will make up the time and effort for you. Remember if you build it they will come. Well I think if you have the hydraulic mill the work will definately be there, and you will have the strength to handle it. I say "suck it up and go for what you really want, leave the regrets for someone else" Don

[Brad_S.]

I've never regretted going 'more than I need' but I've often regretted 'good enough for now'. Hydraulics make a huge difference in production and your physical stamina (especially, as Tom mentioned, down the road a ways ). I think it makes milling safer because you don't have to wrestle logs as much. My first mill didn't have a debarker, this one does and it makes a great difference in blade longevity, I would think even more so on a WM where you're always cutting on the dirty face,
I feel your concern about increased debt, but I vote with the others. Go hydraulic.

[Minnesota_boy]

Before you buy a hydraulic mill, find yourself a 20 foot long 18 to 24" log and roll it uphill on  hot day.  After doing that a couple of times, the hydraulics become a no-brainer.  Spend the money now and reap the rewards down the road for years.

[Rockn H]

I have to agree with the rest of the guys.  If it's close enough that it is a hard decision go hydraulic.  I usually regret buying "good enough for now" about 5 min. after I do it.  I have a manual without a debarker, and I take time to prep any dirty logs.  I usually do it as I decide how I'm going to open it up, so I don't notice any time loss there.  I'm sure there is, I just don't notice it , and it's when we can catch a breather.  Unless the logs have been drug through the mud.  I mean 1/2 coating, I usually get close to mbf/blade.   As to the manual winch.  It doesn't seem to take a lot of manual effort, but it would be faster with hydraulics.  When you have 10 or 15 logs piled up that's a lot of breathers you are losing.

[GF]

I agree with the rest hydraulics is a life saver along with saving time.  At the end of the day you will be glad you had the hydraulics and still wish other manual tasks you do could be powered by hydraulics.

Good luck in your choice.   

[HORSELOGGER]

I believe if you do not go with the hydraulic mill, you will find that you have not really made your life any better over the Peterson mill. Remember ...on the manual mill, the log loading and positioning will all be manual, just like w/ the swing mill, but now you are cutting much slower, rehandling material to edge and handling big slabs and flitches that you dont handle now, plus going through more $ for blades and the associated issues that go with them. With the LT40 hydraulic, you will at least be happy to have the labor savings, plus if it does not work out to your liking, I think it will be an easier mill to move back out of .Good luck to you

[ronwood]

woodbeard,

One of the things that I looked at was the safety issue. With the hydraulics you can stay away from the log when turning it. Also is a lot easier to turn. On the smaller logs it sometimes easier to turn by hand. If the mill your looking at has the 2 plane clamp it comesin  handy flipping the cants and holding them down. I don't regret getting the hydraulics.  Sure helps by the end of the day.

I also have the debarker. It saves me quite a bit of time from cleaning the logs. Kirk Allen posted sometime ago that it increased his number of bd ft cut to I believe around 200 between sharping.  The only time that it has a hard time is with Walnut that has all its bark and the mud is frozen.

Ron

[TexasTimbers]

Don't make the mistake I did. I thought since I had a loader I didn't need a hydraulic mill, but there is so much more to it than just loading. Turning and leveling the log to box the hearts is a major time consumer without hydraulics.
Unless you are cutting smallish logs, and only on occassion, then you will regret not having gone hydraulic.
I bought a manual circle mill app. the same time I bought my LM2000, and after using the manual Lumbermate bandmill, and realizing what a mistake I'd made, I didn't even bother to set up the manual circle mill. I just recently bought an all hydraulic/electric circle mill and will sell the manual one.
If you can't afford to go with the hydraulic machine I'd say just save up intil you can. The logs will still be here when you have enough to do it right.
I bought the manual mills and now I have to buy the hydraulic ones too and sell the manual band mill for alot less than I paid for it or just eat it. I can get what I paid for the used manual circle but the LM 2000 will be a loss.
Go with hydraulics. Just trust us on this one.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Shoot the works  Go for gold. Your back will thank you at the end of the day. I spent 18yrs with a manual circle mill. Now I have a mill that I can sit in a seat and watch the logs go by and lumber fall off.  I wish I had started with this 24yrs ago. Used to saw 2000ft a day with my manuel mill with help and busted my @ss doing it. Now I can saw twice that and more in an afternoon. GET THE HYDRAULIC MILL YOU WON'T REGRET IT.

[woodbeard]

Wow.. Consensus.. on an internet forum?  
That's gotta be a sign.
Thanks, I guess I really just needed some affirmation that I wasn't just lusting after all the bells and whistles. Well, I am   but it's not like heated seats and gold plated hubcaps. Gotta keep things in perspective, right?
Well.. just one more person to convince, now.

[tnlogger]

just tell her it'll make that honey do list easyer 

[Part_Timer]

Wood beard

go to my gallery and look at the picture of my son and I loading that 35" on the LT15.  Now figure even if you have a loader you need to turn that monster at  belt buckle level on a LT40.
     My boss has a manual LT40 and I helped him load and turn some of those 24" monsters and I'm saying go for hydrolic.  It's gota be safer and that is what counts most in the long run.
     Just my .02

Tom

[woodbowl]

Woodbeard, sounds like there are no regrets out there when it comes to HD vs manual. I remember when I converted my manual WM lt40 to hydraulics. I told a fellow sawyer friend that I wanted to leave my manual dog hole position member welded in place, just in case my hydraulics failed, I would be able to keep sawing by using my manual dog. ...........He  said, oh no.......once you get used to these hydraulics, when your hydraulics go down, you will be off to get them back up and running. You won't be fiddling with any of that..............He was right!

[woodmills1]

By the way it is always roll the log uphill, hydraulics or not.  DO NOT  stop at the manual ifin ya can gets one with fluid.

[D._Frederick]

I don't know how old you are, but with a manual mill your back is going to take a licking and it get worse with age.

Also, the de-barker is worth its weight in gold, it will almost double the amount of time on a blade before needing sharpening.

I think that you will have less problems of selling a used hydraulic machine and it will hold it value better.

[Brucer]

I "upgraded" from running a hydraulic LT-40 that someone else owns to running a manual LT-40 of my own.

If you are sure you've got enough demand to keep the hydraulic mill going full time then hydraulics are definitely the way to go. Also be sure you've got enough towing capacity to handle the extra weight. I went manual because there isn't enough demand to support another full-time hydraulic mill around here.

Some of the less obvious advantages of the hydraulic mill ...

You can shove flitches onto the loader arms and easily reload them for edging. With the manual mill the clamp handle gets in the way, they tend to slip and slide down the ramp, and the lugs on the ramps chew up the faces.

The rollers on the hydraulic toeboards make it much easier to position a log along the mill. This is really important if you're cutting long logs (close to the mill's capacity) or very short logs.

The hydraulic mill let's you correct positioning mistakes very quickly because you're standing in one place. On the manual mill correcting a mistake often means walking down both sides of the mill.

I looked the advantages of buying a debarker vs. buying a sharpener/setter. If sharpening is going to reduce your sawing time, then you're better off investing in the debarker. In fact, the debarker is right at the top of my list of "things to buy as soon as the money starts coming in"  .

[Furby]

Well......
As a smaller manual mill owner, I think you should get the manual mill!









NOT!
If the extra $$$ isn't going to put ya in a real bad bind, SPEND THEM!

[woodbeard]

Also be sure you've got enough towing capacity to handle the extra weight.

Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about, too. Currently, I have a Toyota truck ( 4cyl/auto ) I know Urbanlogger tows his lt30 manual mill with his Toyo, But I'm thinking maybe I need something bigger for the heavier mill? I can probably get a hold of a '79 Ford F250 with a 351m, how would that do?

[woodbeard]

Like, would that pull something like this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7535889935


 

[ScottAR]

A 250 would pull it fine.  Those 351M engines were never powerhouses as ford built em but they can be awakened fairly easily and cheaply.  Ya can make a 400M out of em if you can find a crank  from a 400 and get some 400 pistons. 

[woodbeard]

Every time I try to do stuff like that, it ends up a nightmare.
I had a 351m in a 3/4 ton van once, it seemed to do pretty good. It's more than twice the engine that's in the Toyota, anyway.

[Brucer]

To put the towing issue into perspective, my 2-wd 1980 half-ton diesel chevy has a maximum towing capacity of 900 kg, or 2000 pounds. A new manual WM weighs in at just under 1400 kg, or 3000 lb. I also live in the mountains -- I don't go anywhere without going up or down a 7% grade or worse.

 I talked to just about every mechanic and transmission specialist I could think of (including two GM dealers) before I bought my mill. In short, they all said the truck could do it, if I added "cheater springs" and an auxiliary transmission cooler. "And be sure the mill has brakes", they all said.

Bringing the mill home, I was often down to 60 km/hr (40 MPH) on the steeper bits. And on the really long haul on the final leg of the trip, I was down to 50 (30 MPH) -- and passing semi's  . On the level, I was easily up to 100 (60 MPH), but it took a tad longer than I was used to. Stopping was a breeze with the trailer brakes, but I"m sure glad I had 'em.

It's pretty obvious that I"m pushing my truck to the limit here. The extra weight of the hydraulics would be the last straw, I figure. A 3/4 ton pickup (or a recent model 1/2 tonner) will probably pull the heavier mill just fine. You have to think about where you might have to pull your mill as well. If you've got 4-wd, then you're in good shape for either mill.

[ScottAR]

The main drawback to the M series is the retarded cam timing.  A '69 429 timing  chain would put it back to "straight up" and really wake the engine up. 
It's 4deg retarded stock.  Bolt on but ya gotta take the engine dress off to get the timing cover off. 

[woodbeard]

The seller says the mill weighs 3500lbs, and has trailer brakes, with a 6-pin connector. What is involved in getting power to the brakes?
I will be driving thru eastern Pennsylvania, so lots of big hills. I will probably borrow a bigger truck for the trip, sounds like I might cook my little Toyota.

[UrbanLogger]

The seller says the mill weighs 3500lbs, and has trailer brakes, with a 6-pin connector. What is involved in getting power to the brakes?
I will be driving thru eastern Pennsylvania, so lots of big hills. I will probably borrow a bigger truck for the trip, sounds like I might cook my little Toyota.

I dunno about the AT on Toys but my 4cyl MT regularly hauls 5-6000lbs of logs--everything is the same on it as the 1 ton Toyota used to make except the springs and rear wheel bearings.

We are looking to add on a hydraulic clamps and turner as soon as we get "a round tuit" 

I still don't know about hydraulic loading though as it would be in the Towmotor's way when we're sawing at the shop.

[Tom]

I pulled my '90 LT40 with an '88 Toyota 1/2 ton and a 6 cyl.  when I first started.  It did fine for 2 years and then spun a bearing.  The mechanic who rebuilt it said that he couldn't find anything to cause it, so we figured it had to do with the lugging on the hiway.   It would work going up the overpasses, even in 4th.  I didn't use fifth when towing,  I could see how that was not good.

When the bearing went, I was on a winding county road, doing about 35.

That's when I got the C60 and spent the next few years wondering if the mill was still behind the truck.

[woodbeard]

Yeah, my main worry is the auto trans. I have a feeling it wasn't meant for this sort of thing. The Ford has the factory installed towing package, and I think it also has the trailer brake relay, as well. And I may have been mistaked about the engine, it might be a windsor.

BTW, anyone notice who the winning bidder on that sawmill was? 

[DanG]

Shore did, and I commented down in the "Ebay" thread.  Congrats again!

As far as the truck is concerned, I favor a one-ton with duals.  Engine doesn't matter so much, but the diesels get much better mileage.  I wouldn't be afraid to tow a Woodmizer with a half-ton truck, but wouldn't buy one for that purpose.  Chances are, you can find a serviceable one-ton cheaper than a 3/4 or half-ton, anyway.  Like the mill, you won't be sorry if you go with the thing that is going to serve you best.

Also, besides towing the mill, you're going to be hauling a bunch of other stuff around, too.  Don't forget to figure that into your total payload.

[woodbeard]

 
Yeah, I realised I was detracting from that thread a bit, so I mentioned it here, too.
I've got a 1ton dually, but it is an old beater with no power steering. Hard enough to turn it around as it is let alone with a trailer. But I think I can get enough for it to buy the Ford, which is a 3/4 ton, but 10 years younger and much more reliable.

[TexasTimbers]

Don't know if you can tell it much, but this is my 34' 3 axle loaded a bit too much, behind my overlyburdened F350 with the stops sitting on the axles. I drove to our property like this, very slowly, 12 miles away. It handled like a barge in a hurricane 

[tnlogger]

kevjay now thats some thing i bad at  when i was logging i'd put 2200 bft of hicory on my old c60 with 8.25/20 tires get to the mill and check the scales at around 45or46,000 with 26,000 lb tags.
dont know why everyone called my crazy.

[woodbeard]

OK, so how did you get the bobcat off, if it was sitting on the ramps? 
Or for that matter, how did you fold the ramps up under it?

[Haytrader]

 

Maybe it is a "hoovercraft"

 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 I'm glad that I'm not the only one to wonder about that. 

[TexasTimbers]

Hahaha, I wondered if anyone would ask ... here is another picture, a really bad one, but see if you can figure it out .....

[Fla._Deadheader]

 When I was in Arky land, I had one of them in the front yard. 

[woodbeard]

OK, I think I got it.. drive the bobcat up with a the last load on the forks, raised above the other, fold up the ramps, back up the bobcat, and lower the load?
Or is that a skyhook I see in that picture?

[TexasTimbers]

woodbeard you missed your callin you shoulda been a detective 

[woodbeard]

So I was right about the sky hook?

[TexasTimbers]

Oh no, no sky hook! I lifted the last load of 1 1/8" Sturdi Floor above the other materials, drove forward, lifted the ramps and pop-up deck, and then backed up, let down the load and viola, just as you said

[DanG]

So what yer sayin' is, ya figgered out a smart way to do somethin' stoopid, eh?

Not really bein' critical, just couldn't resist.

[Furby]

When I got the backhoe, the seller delivered it, as part of the deal included an old pick up truck I had sitting here.
Turned out the truck was a tight fit and we couldn't put the ramps of the trailer up.
After putting some chains on to keep it from rolling off, we used the front end loader to lift the rear end of the truck up enough to put the ramps up.

[Brucer]

The seller says the mill weighs 3500lbs, and has trailer brakes, with a 6-pin connector. What is involved in getting power to the brakes?

Buy yourself an inexpensive electric brake controller, coupla automotive circuit breakers, and a 6 pin connector. Wire 'em up as per the instructions that come with the brake controller.

A lot of North American trucks have the rear end wiring connected by a plug. You can buy a plug-in adapter to feed the trailer lights. Some trucks also have a couple of auxiliary wires running from the firewall to the rear end, which you can use to hook up the brakes.

I can send you a one page PDF file from Wood-Mizer that shows how their 6-pin plug is wired.

Just had a look at the machine you bought. Man, you got yourself one sweet machine. Good thing I already bought mine, or you'da had some competition for that one  .

[woodbeard]

Ya, and it it truly one of a kind, too. Not another one like it! Apparently, that is the only lt60 bed they ever made, anyone with the $$ to invest in the top of the line mill went for the full length. The whole seven yards, as it were.
So the prototype sat around for years until some creative techs got a wild hair and put the lt30 saw head on it. A true frankenmizer.
I thought surely someone would scoop it up at the last minute, but I never figured that would be me! During the last 5 minutes, my blood pressure shot up to almost normal!

[sprucebunny]

  CONGRATULATIONS 

That looks like a real score

[woodbeard]

Thanks, Joan. How are you liking your new mill?

[sprucebunny]

It's great 

Good thing I'd already bought it 'cause I might have been bidding on YOUR Woodmizer 

I think you got a really good deal there . Hope it works well for you.