aspen/popal bdft per cord

[Mike_D]

Does anyone know an average yield on a cord of popal?

[Jeff]

Average yield is about 500 board foot. Depends a lot on the size and quality, but thats the average we have always used. doesnt matter what species. A cord of aspen is the same volume as a cord of oak or maple. Acords a cord. 128 cubic feet.

[Ron Scott]

It depends upon average top diameter inside bark (dib) of the unpeeled bolts.

dib         # of 8 foot bolts, Aspen

    3                                150
    4                                  89
    5                                  60
    6                                  43
    7                                  33
    8                                  26
    9                                  22
  10                                  18
  12                                  13
  14                                  10
  16                                    7
  18                                    6
  20                                    5

Reference: Lake States Forest Experiment Station Technical Notes 1947.

[Tom]

Ron,
I feel really stupid, but I don't understand. :-/

[Jeff]

Ron, the title of the thread is looking for board feet so I take it he is talking saw logs and the approximent lumber yield, not the number of bolts per cord.??

But now we have both!  

[Tom]

Oh, now I understand.

[CHARLIE]

Won't bolts ruin your saw blades?  

[Tom]

An eight footer probably would  

[Brian_Bailey]

Okay,  so if I go an look at a Walnut log ( yard tree ) that has approx. 500 bf doyle scale in it.  Offer the seller 30 cents/bf for the log.  He refuses the offer saying he can get more for it by cutting it up for firewood.  Green firewood is going for $35 / face ( 16").  Question,  is he taking a loss going the firewood route ?  Thanks,  Brian...

[Bro. Noble]

Brian,

$35/rank of 16" wood = $105/cord

500 bdft@ $.30 = $150

When you consider he would have to do considerable work to make the firewood it looks like an easy decision to me.

Noble

[Tom]

Not having any Walnut around, I can't relate to the wood, but from the numbers he sure is. :-/

Some homeowners have heard about how valuable their tree is from stories on the street.  I wonder if he has heard that his tree is worth thousands.  If he wanted firewood, there would be plenty after you got through.    Tell him you will give him the slabs, gratus.

Did you happen to ask him how much he thought it was worth?

[Bro. Noble]

Brian,

When you say "yard tree" I picture one short log with the likelyhood of metal in it.  Personally, I wouldn't fool with it.  On the otherhand FAS Walnut (green) sells here for $1.40 /bdft.  By the time you figure the log would scale more by the International scale,  on a bandmill it will saw out way over 500 bdft; and the grading rules for Walnut are much more lenient than other hardwoods; if the tree is fair (consider the large limbs too) you might be able to give a lot more.

We will cut walnut this fall,  quite a few of veneer quality.  Any log that a buyer won't give me $2.00/bdft Doyle,  I'll saw and I think I'll be money ahead or at least ahead in satisfaction.  Maybe that is what the fellow is telling you about firewood.

Walnut doesn't make the best of firewood-----makes an awful lot of ash.

Noble

[Brian_Bailey]

Noble, Tom,

Actually,  this log was 32"x 10' clear butt log and yes it had one spot that the metal detector sang pretty loud on.  That's why I only offered 30 cents.  I don't mind buying yard tree logs esp. walnut.  I don't cut the tree down, just buy the logs.

He figured he should be getting at least a thousand bucks for it.

The reason I posted my question on this thread is.  I'm trying to come up with a way of showing yard tree owners (most don't have a clue what a board foot of lumber is) that their money ahead selling me the log  then to cut it up for firewood.

Jeff  says a cord has 500 bf avg.,  3 face to a cord puts the bf at 166/ face.  That seems a little low to me, considering a face is 16"x48"x8".  If this was a solid beam, there would be 512 bf of lumber.  Considering again that a facecord of firewood has a lot of space between the peices you might lose 30%??  Then  512 - 30% =  358 bf./ facecord.

So if you have a log that has 500 bf in it and you offer $.30/ bf thats $150 for the log.

The value of that same log as firewood would be 500 bf / 358 = 1.4 facecords.  1.4 x $35/ face = $49.

Do you think this works?  Brian...

[Tom]

Your numbers are well within the ballpark of a valid argument.  Some homeowners may or may not appreciate them.  After you have explained what you will pay, and why, then sometimes you are left to wait on his call back.  

I think that another argument against firewood is that the wood could perform a function for years beyond the homeowners lifespan if he would allow it.  Now, around here, I have to argue that the wood is worth something.  Kinda the opposite situation of yours.  Single-log owners generally have the mentality that they just want to get rid it.  "Is it any good for anything?".   I have to tell them what it is good for and some of the marketing aspectsof getting rid of it.  They then see that they might use some of it but had never thought that it could satisfy the needs of a hundred other craftsmen.  

If you can get into a conversation along these lines then they may understand that the thousand dollars is it's value at the finished end or somewhere in between, not in it's on-the-stump form.  By adding value, it becomes more valuable.  But, it all starts at the stump, at the bottom of an inverted pyramid.

Assuming that your price is fairly quoted, your only other argument may be to include him in adding the value.  You could start with a typical custom sawing job where he pays for the service and assumes the responsiblilty of the damage to the equipment by the tree.  Another possibility would be for him to assume the marketing of the wood and you will cut it for a cut of what he sells it for.  Or the final possibility which is to sell it to you for 30 cents a board foot and you except the responsibilities.  When he calls around for a better price, he may find out what you are talking about.

I went through almost this same argument at a mulch mill.  The cypress was being ground up.  I wasn't buying logs, I just wanted to saw them.  Another man and I showed the mulch mill manager that a bag of his mulch was being sold for less than three dollars.  The trees he was grinding would make 1x12's and one 1x12x16 made no more than a third of a bag.

He could sell green 1x12's for 50 cents a linear foot or perhaps as much as $1.25 per linear foot.  At 50 cents his 16 foot 1x12 was worth $8.  That means that he had $24 dollars worth of wood in his $3 dollar bag.   The only thing he had to do was put in a little more effort.  A light came on.

To accept your price for the log,  he has to see that there is too much effort on his part for the money.  (you know that already)

My sons sold firewood for $70 a pickup load or about 1/2 cord.  That was sawed, split, delivered and stacked.  Your figures are generously competent.

I have heard that a walnut tree will bring thousands of dollars but I've never met anyone who said that they sold one for that........nor anyone who said they bought one for that.   Have you?

[Jeff]

The Timber Buyers Network receives Walnut yard tree questions all the time. Everyone of them thinks that a walnut tree is worth THOUSANDS. That is pretty much urban legend. We don't have a good answer

First of all, a yard tree has grown up in the open, it will be of short trunk and sprawling limbs. Very bad form for a tree to have any value.. The costs and liabilities of going into a residential area and harvesting such a tree (once you have removed the cloths line, the tree house, and the wrench and bicycle tire pump the kids left lying in the crotch), the value is pretty much negated.

Ron Scott, tell these guys how many times in over 40 years of forestry you remember someone buying yard trees for big bucks.

[Jeff]

Another remark. I think that 3 face cords to a cord is a falicy. Buy a log or pulp cord sometime and cut it up into 16 inch lengths. Bet you dont get 3.

Numbers here are just that. To many variables. My statement of 500 ft a cord, is a wide reaching blanket number that we use in the mills I have worked as the most primitive of estimators.

Truck of aspen comes in, we need enough logs to saw 10,000 feet yet. Truck has 20 cord. Should make it, give or take 500 feet depending on the wood.

That rough.

[Ron Wenrich]

Boy, I'm glad that everyone has rushed over to use those nifty calculators that Jeff and I developed.  

You can figure out the volume of that log by putting in the variables in the hardwood pulp calculator.  Yes, it will figure up any tree or log.  You just have to know the length and put that in as the number of bolts.  

http://www.timberbuyer.net/pulp.htm

You also have to figure your dbh - diameter at 4.5' above the ground.  

If you figure you have a 34" log at that height, you have about .72 cords in that log.  

There is more volume using the Doyle scale than the Scribner or International scale.

Everyone feels that their walnut log is a veneer quality log.  If it was, then it might be worth that much.  But, open grown trees have wide growth rings.  Those wide growth rings yield very poor grain pattern on the veneer, which means veneer buyers usually aren't interested.

Our truck drive said that he saw a $50,000 walnut log sitting in a veneer log yard in Maryland.  I was pretty skeptical of that price.  But, the growth rings were very tight and very evenly spaced.  It was 31" x 15'  At least, that's what the veneer company said they paid for it.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, yard trees, fence line trees and power line trees of any species are of low " commercial" log value for the many reasons mentioned. They are also the most hazardous to fall. Much greater liabilities involved.

One usually has to pay the logging crew or pay extra to get them fallen. They are usually left for the professional tree and landscape company with their special eguipment to handle such trees.

A low value "commercial" log tree may have an extremely high value as a "landscape" tree however. Location and purpose of a tree and species creates is value.

The board foot and cordwood volumes vary for hardwoods and softwoods and by species, but the "rule of thumb' has been 2 cords/1000 board feet or 500 board feet/cord. The industry standard here however is 2.5 pulpwood cords/1000 board feet.

Yes, use the Forum Calulators. They have the answers and very useful. and well done.

[Brian_Bailey]

Okay, I agree that yard trees are not profitable for a large commercial operation.  But for a small operation like mine, yard trees are a very valuable resource for me to pursue.  The lumber I get from these logs is exceptional.  I have no problem selling this lumber or using it myself.

It's a shame to see this resource get cut up for firewood or hauled away to some land fill because the owner has no idea what it's worth.  Brian...

[Jeff]

I agree that its valuable to the right guy. I thought the problem here was that , and especially with walnut, that the landowner thinks its far more valuable then what it is.

[Ron Scott]

Brian,

We need some more wood users like yourself. I wish there were more in our area that would maximize the use of yard trees other than firewood.

I would have a lot of trees for your use as many land owners have yard trees they want cut and removed. They usually end up having the Tree and Landscape people handle them at a cost for removal.

[Brian_Bailey]

Tom,  Thanks for the reply.  What you have described is pretty much what I'm dealing with. You raise some very good points that I will use in the future.

Jeff B,  I wasn't criticizing your 500 bf figure. You stated it was an average.  I just wanted to tighten the numbers up for my situation.  I don't deal with log or pulp cords here, only firewood cords.  The general assumption here, is that there are 3 face to a cord. The Ag. law in NY specifically states that if you adv.& sell firewood by the face you must state its dimension because the only legal defination is for a full cord 4'x4'x8'.

Yes,  Over valuation of the log is the problem.  The trouble as I see it,  is,  the landowner has for years looked at that tree as a valuable asset.  When it comes time to harvest it for whatever reason ( ice, wind damage, etc.) he finds out that nobody is willing to pay him what he assumes its worth  because its a yard tree.  Now that asset has become a liability, it's going to cost him a lot of money to have a tree service come in and take it down.  Then he finds out it will cost him even more to have it hauled away. So he decides to keep it and sell the log and the top for firewood.  Still no takers.  Somehow, he finds out about me.  Gives me a call.  I go look at what he has and decide I can use the log.  Make a fair offer and hear the comment, " Well if thats all you will pay,  then I might as well give it all to my brother in law and  he can cut it up for firewood.  At least someone in the family will get some use out of it!".

That's what I'm trying to overcome.  To me that log is worth more than firewood, but I'm not going to go broke buying it either.  Brian...

[Jeff]

Brian, I didnt think you were criticizing at all.  I guess if the guy want to not get anything for it and burn it its a shame. But its ultimately his choice. You just have to come up with the figure that makes the difference. What to charge is always a dillema for me when it comes to web work.

[Ron Wenrich]

You could have offered to saw his log into lumber.  Then the metal liability is on the log owner.  And he can go and find lumber buyers.

One time there was an article in the local newspaper about a walnut tree bringing big bucks in Indiana.  That's when I got phone calls.

One guy wanted to sell his walnut.  So, I took a look.  14" walnut with a fence running through it.  I figured it up and gave him a number.  He said that was too low.

Meanwhile, he had some really nice white oak that were really big.  Those he wouldn't part with.  

You just can't win.

[RobK]

Purdue University has a walnut on some piece of land they own that they say is worth $57,000. I wonder if that's stumpage or what? Purdue also publishes a pamphlet about why yard trees usually aren't worth anything. Might be handy to hand out to people that want to sell junk trees.

http://www.agcom.purdue.edu/agcom/Pubs/FNR/FNR-93.html

[Brian_Bailey]

RobK,   That is an excellent article.  Thank you for making it available.  Brian...