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Author Topic: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment  (Read 880905 times)

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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #720 on: June 15, 2004, 07:49:34 pm »
That's cool swampwhite. On the BC coast they used the sikorsky as support helicopter to bundle the wood for the sky crane which had 20,000 lb lift. Didn't know it was cost effective to use'm in the east. Were you cutting veneer logs?

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline swampwhiteoak

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #721 on: June 15, 2004, 07:53:26 pm »
Carson is nearly full-service, they provide their own loader.  Not sure the model but it's a cat track loader, can work effeciently even in a wet landing.  This harvest produced 680MBF Doyle, I had cruised it at 1MMBF International (for all grades).  Low grade and pulpwood had to be left in the woods due to economics.  I was pleased at the utilization, I had feared that it would be much worse.


Offline swampwhiteoak

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #722 on: June 15, 2004, 07:59:00 pm »
Quote
That's cool swampwhite. On the BC coast they used the sikorsky as support helicopter to bundle the wood for the sky crane which had 20,000 lb lift. Didn't know it was cost effective to use'm in the east. Were you cutting veneer logs?


It's borderline cost-effective.  It can make money but compared to conventional it isn't even close.  The advantages were speed, being low impact, and being able to reach areas that would have been near impossible with conventional equipment.  Disadvantages were that it's expensive so we get less utilization, lower stumpage prices, and the stand has to be good to even consider it.  It also cut out the local loggers.

A sawmill bought the job so I couldn't say the entire breakdown of what the wood went for.  There was a lot of large diameter trees -white oak, black oak, yellow-poplar, and some cherry, walnut, and red oak.  I'm certain a lot of it went veneer but it was mainly just nice sawlogs.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #723 on: June 15, 2004, 08:08:09 pm »
None of us would expect ya to give that private info about total $$, but price per thousand by species and grade would be nice. If nothing else, its nice to know what mill delivered prices are in different areas. ;)

Thanks for the photos and the scoop.

Cheers :)

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline swampwhiteoak

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #724 on: June 15, 2004, 09:02:01 pm »
well I can tell you this much:

This type of harvest will cost between 300-500/MBF for logging and loading.  Total cost depends on many factors and I don't want to go into the exact numbers.  It also takes a buyer that can handle 20-30 tractor trailers of sawlogs per day.  

This stand would have probably gone for 350-400 MBF when it was standing for conventional harvest.  After our ice storm which higher logging costs it would have probably been around 250/mbf.  We got 51/MBF for the total 1MMBF stumpage, which they probably took 80%.  Conventional Logging costs in this area were roughly 180-200MBF before the ice storm, and are now 225-260.  You can run the math and figure out how much a log needs to be worth to maximize return on a lump sum basis.

Mill delivered state-wide averages are available on the web, let me search for that link.

Offline swampwhiteoak

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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #726 on: June 16, 2004, 05:46:01 am »
Swampwhite, nice link to the prices. I was surprised to see red oak was worth more than white oak, cause around here it goes for pulp unless someone gathers it up for a small saw mill operator to mill some lumber. Its not real common here is the main reason, and they tend to be quite limby. I'm glad to see black cherry prime is fetching big bucks. Again only small quantities here and its diseased, so a small mill owner will save some out for sawing. Mostly ends up as pulp or left standing. They can get it from the NE states here for around $900-$1200/th in log form for veneer, its sometimes in the loads with oak so it gets separated out.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #727 on: June 23, 2004, 06:34:58 am »
Here is a profile from the Logging and Sawmilling Journal on using the Ergo harvester and Buffalo forwarder. I know both the owner and the Forest Tech in the article. (March 2004 issue)

cheers

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Scott

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #728 on: June 29, 2004, 10:32:26 am »
 I see on Paul_H's site it says his company does shovel logging. This is one method I've yet to see mentioned on this thread. Maybe someone can shed some light on the topic. From what I gather its getting really popular in the west.

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #729 on: June 29, 2004, 04:23:35 pm »
Scott,

There are several photos of "shovel logging" machines in the thread. The harvesting and skidding is performed by swing machines successively moving trees or stems from one pile to another in the direction of the skid. They are typically track machines.
~Ron

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #730 on: June 29, 2004, 05:32:08 pm »
Its usually called hoe chucking with excavator type equipment. Then there is the super snorkler used in grapple yarding to yard up to a road landing and a mobile back spar/tower is used along the lower cut block boundary to clear the ground with the load. If your yarding down hill you usually use spar trees to anchor the line, especially on slopes over 50 %. The coutour maps were so poor or too small a scale we had to run deflection lines all over the cut block to make our own contour maps. (the last link below has a PPT presentation to explain this) We didn't want to lay out road that would have blind spots to the yarders and create deep gouges in the hillside. This is what we called the side hill gouger. On them side hills with damage you could always expect slope failures during or after the site was logged. As we layed out the logging blocks we also assessed any gullies (gully assessment procedure) for potential risk of slope failure from slash and large wody debris loads in the gully systems. Some of our blocks had to be defered from logging because of this risk.

ere's an Article on hoe chucking

Article on Grapple Yarding

Photo set of different Yarders  

Here's a Power Point Presentation  from VT.EDU to explain the cable yarding system.

Enjoy. :)




Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Scott

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #731 on: June 30, 2004, 07:00:55 am »
 So it sounds like shovel logging is best suited to heavier cutting. It doesn't sound like it would work really good in select cuts or for the private woodlot owner who just wants to take a few sticks out. From what gather it's usually used on ground too wet or steep for skidders. In Canada it seems to be mostly a BC thing. How would a shovel compare to a grapple skidder for productivity?

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #732 on: June 30, 2004, 06:47:17 pm »
I haven't any numbers Scot on productivity but the Grapple Skidder would be more productive. We layed out ground inland from the coast up in the Nass River country in BC for grapple skidder. There where alot of natural benches in the hills to break the long slopes. SOme sites where borderline though and we always had the option of the grapple yarder. As you have read or researched, the hoe chuck system is used in the rain belt of the coast where a skidder wouldn't have a chance in all that goose goo soil and slopes. I'de like to call it something else but this being family oriented. errm ;) Walk ahead 2 steps slide back 1. :D :D You  could find info published by FERIC on productivity of these machines. UNBSJ must have some reports in their library, you could browse Ferics website for the specific reports and go search them at the library. Irving probably has a subscription as does Fraser/Nexfor to FERIC, so you might find a report through them.

FERIC website

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #733 on: June 30, 2004, 06:54:23 pm »
I guess there may be differences as to what we call "shovel logging" in different parts of the country. Here, it is a cutting head on an excavator  or "shovel" type machine with an arm and turnbuckel. Usually a tracked machine that does the cutting and processing into variable lengths.

It is usually supported by a rubber tired forwarder to remove the cut products.

~Ron

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #734 on: June 30, 2004, 07:20:14 pm »
Ron:

Sounds like a feller buncher and a separate forwarder.

We used to be menaced by the Koering Feller Forward that would cut the tree at the stump and pile it on behind whole. It would be forwarded to a landing where a flail debarker was used on the tree, limbs and all and then passed through a chipper and into a van destined to the hardwood pulpmill. What those monsters didn't cut was simply pushed over and mauled over.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Bruce_A

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #735 on: June 30, 2004, 09:07:24 pm »
Crawler, high lead, rubber tired skidder, or shovel yarding.  Done them all at least once.  No buncher involved,  there is no way anything else can keep up with a shovel on slightly sloping ground.  Some places a buncher will make you puke with the steepness of the ground it will cover.  And the operators are as  near to crazy as one person can get.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #736 on: July 01, 2004, 04:24:41 am »
Bruce_A

They use them feller bunchers up and down our hardwood hills here if they are rolling, and if they are steep pitched and bouldery, no way. I think Fraser's has used some high lead logging with spar trees around Clear water and Stanley mountains, which didn't get logged back in the 70's and early 80's conventionally. Now those ridge tops are all scalped down to the bed rock. Growing back to white birch, black spruce and fir mainly, just like after a forest fire.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Scott

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #737 on: July 02, 2004, 12:50:25 pm »
 Swamp Donkey, from what I've seen on the internet it seems like they use shovels a lot more than track skidders on steep slopes out there. Is this because the shovels can tackle a steeper slope or just bcause most companies already have a shovel around?

Offline Scott

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #738 on: July 02, 2004, 12:52:47 pm »
Swamp Donkey, i think this is what you mean.
http://www.unb.ca/web/standint/nbcc/machine/forwarders/kff_a.html
The one at the woodsmans museum is a bit different, I believe it has a delimber and is set up for shortwood. I think i have a pic of it around somewhere.
http://www.stthomasu.ca/~pmacdona/tresearch/ffh.htm

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment
« Reply #739 on: July 02, 2004, 02:14:30 pm »
Yup that's the beast and Valley Forest didn't use a delimber or slasher for their hardwood rape and pillage. They just unloaded the trees road side off the Koering and the debarker crammed limbs and all into it and the chipper spurt the chips into the van. I know the debarkers had to convert from gas engine to diesels. I think Valley burnt more than one engine up before the switch.

The site that Zundel has was probably a Fraser operation, they were always colaberating with UNB on studies with machines and processes. Zundel was a new professor at UNB when I graduated. Didn't care for'em too much as a professor or for chat. I think the position went to his head. He could have lightened up a bit since those days. ;)

I remember Frasers using them in hardwood to chase softwood, so alot of hardwood was wasted on crown lands, and no one was allowed to utilize it for firewood. The roadsides had thousands of cord rotting and some was burnt in fall. Everyone used to spray the white birch on the boreal sites, or if it was left after the softwood was cherry picked it died from sun scald within 3 years.

Your right about the Koering at the museum, now that I think about it. Its been 15 years since I've been there. ;D

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry