Air Drying Hickory and White Oak

[Frank_B]

Just had a couple of logs sawed - thanks to Kevin_H.  He did a great job - even let me run the WM for a few strokes!  I was going to just stack it and have it checked for MC by a local hardwood dealer, but after reading some of the posts in this forum, I'm wondering if I'm smart enough to get the job done.  The hickory was down for over a year, but was kept off the ground.  The white oak had the crown blown out last year, but the trunk was left standing until Kevin was ready to make boards.  I put the white oak into a shed with redwood scraps as stickers.  The hickory is in the garage beside the wife's station wagon.  Can anyone offer further advice on air drying this wood or how long the wood should sit or spacing of the boards?  Thanks!

[Tom]

Get it where there is an air-flow.   Green lumber stacked in a stagnant building, against a wall or in a corner is very prone to the growth of mold and worse.   It takes a good and steady exchange of air to remove the damp air from the inside of a stack of wood.    Having it under shelter is good.   The sun as well as a humid invironment will be detrimental to your lumber if allowed to contact it directly.

In some areas, insect damage can occur as they are attracted to the wood and bore into it to lay eggs.  The eggs are also a bad thing because they will hatch as much as 3 years down the road and ruin a completed project as well re-infest the wood or infest any other wood that is nearby.

You can do it yourself as long as you are aware of the problems and treat the lumber properly.  There are a lot of threads already on the forum about drying and lots of help to be had for the asking.

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

[Frank_B]

Thanks, Tom.  The shed has a water tight roof, but the sides are vertical boards that sorta kinda overlap - you can see lots of daylight through many of the seams.  But the shed is also located in a low part of the yard with woods on the north and west sides with a hill on the east and south.  Bottom line, there isn't much air moving *outside* of the shed.  So, how much air is needed to keep from growing mold?  The white oak is really nice looking wood, so I'm more than a little concerned about leaving it air dry.

The hickory, on the other hand, was down for a year but not sawed until July 7th.  I'm going to use that in the bed of the truck and a trailer, so I'm considering using it as is.

I guess I'm looking for validation that the white oak will be okay and using the hickory as is will not be a waste of time and good wood.

[Tom]

It doesn't sound like an optimum place to dry lumber, but, it's difficult to judge by just reading notes.   If it were me, I would be concerned about the air-flow.  You have to get the wet air out from inside of those stacks.

Fast drying of the surfaces will go a long way to inhibit molding.

Keep a close watch on it and if you see mold starting, apply a mildicide.  Laundry bleach in a garden sprayere mixed 3:1 has worked for me.  You may find something better.

Don't be afraid to restack the lumber if you see it being attacked.  That would be better than trying to treat the lumber without unstacking it.

Mildew will not only stain but will remain in the wood for long periods and grow again if the invironment is right.  It's nothing to play around with. 

[OneWithWood]

Your use for the hickory may be a waste of time and effort.  Hickory is a good strong wood bet is very susceptible to attack by powder post beetles.  Your trailer and truck decks may not last very long if you do not treat the lumber.  White oak on the other hand is ideal for those applications.

[Frank_B]

Don't be afraid to restack the lumber if you see it being attacked.  That would be better than trying to treat the lumber without unstacking it.

After reading more of the discussion threads, guess what I'm doing tomorrow - restacking the oak.  I need to cut some thicker stickers and figure out how to move the air.  Man! and I just tossed an old box fan out about a month ago.  The shed has power, so putting a fan inside to move the air isn't impossible...  maybe I'll just restack it outside and cover it with tin.

[Frank_B]

OWW - Thanks for the tip on using oak instead of the hickory.  As far as treating the hickory, I was going to seal it with something like Thompson's water sealer or paint it with a clear varnish.  The wood decks are more for appearance than utility; however, both the truck and trailer are used for 'real' work.  If you have any thoughts on protecting the wood, please don't hesitate to speak up.

[jimF]

If the hickory is not going to get wet I would not worry too much.

[Frank_B]

Keep a close watch on it and if you see mold starting, apply a mildicide.  Laundry bleach in a garden sprayere mixed 3:1 has worked for me.  You may find something better.

Don't be afraid to restack the lumber if you see it being attacked.  That would be better than trying to treat the lumber without unstacking it.

I'm half-way done with restacking all the hickory and oak, and just as you folks predicted, there's mold all over several boards.  I'm treating the boards with Tom's recommendation of 3:1 bleach water with a garden sprayer as I restack the boards outside in an area where they'll get more air flow.  The new area is open to the breezes, and will be covered with a tarp when I'm done.  I'm going to support the tarp so it doesn't touch the wood - air flow air flow air flow...  If you have any other ideas, please let me know.  Thanks for all the help.

[yieldmap]

Frank,

My (current) recipe for air-drying oak is:

Outside 2 weeks (summer) or 4 weeks (winter), re-stack
Inside 2 months, re-stack
Inside 6 months, re-stack
Inside 12 months, re-stack the 5/4 and thicker

I do a pretty good job avoiding sticker stain by moving it a lot.  I found the outside jaunt helps the initial dry cycle by really letting the wind work on it.  I never cover it outside, let the rain hit it a couple of times to wash off the sawdust.  OTOH, if it's 90' and raining daily, bring the wood in.

IMO, you can't move those darn stickers enough to avoid mold.  Besides, it's good exercise and a great way to spend quality time with your brother-in-law, kids, etc.  And to think, some people actually PAY the health club for exercise!!!

I just started drying a load with my "homemade DH kiln."  It's a simple stud structure with visqueen on the inside, and a dehumidifier...we'll see how it works. 
The first charge of wood was about 17' air-dried...trying to get under 10 for some moulding.

Sam

[Frank_B]

Sam - It does smell great!  From pretty much anywhere in the yard, the breeze carries a whiff every now and then.

But if I tell my wife that we need to move this wood inside - just a couple of weeks after we moved it outside - I may not have any help.  And besides, I'd probably have a heart attack half way through the stack :-(

The stack is protected from direct sun and water (I've got a picture of the stack, but can't figure out how to get it uploaded).  A thunderstorm with wind would certainly get the edges wet, but the biggest share of water would not touch the wood.  A local hardwood dealer told me he would do the final drying in his kiln (.35/bft).  He said the wood wouldn't likely be ready until next spring.  The stickers are store-bought pine 2x4's that were ripped into 3/4" thick pieces.  Am I risking the ruination of the wood if I let it sit?

TIA for your help!

[yieldmap]

Frank,
Sounds like you've got it in a good place with plenty of airflow.  You're probably good to go.  Keep the tarp off the top of the wood, and it will dry just fine.

[beenthere]

Frank_B
Wondering how your hickory and White oak are doing. Just noticed your dry stack showed up and tracked it back to your posts here.



Hope you don't mind my posting it for you.

[Frank_B]

Hey!  Cool - thanks for posting the picutre.  Since taking the snapshot, I've placed a plastic tarp over a frame, rested it on the concrete blocks, then tied it down so the wind won't blow it away.  The wood is still there, and I think may be having a problem.  A few of the white oak boards are warping.  I've thought about taking the stack apart and turning the boards over - will that help?  The warping is showing up at the stickers - the board is pulling up and away from the sticker.  The wood has been sawn for about 90 days now.  Should I try to get a moister reading to see if it is ready for a kiln?

Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated!!  And thanks again for posting the pic.

Regards,
Frank

[beenthere]

One thing that could very well be allowing the warping is the sticker spacing, which is a bit far apart. Since you are noticing the warping and considering restacking, I'd add more stickers with good supports under each vertical 'row' of stickers, and make them no less than 18" apart. I know, that seems close, and it is a lot of stickers. But warped lumber isn't good for much either.     More weight on the pile helps some too.
If re-piling, place the better quality boards near the bottom, as the lower quality on top will help add weight. Reducing the warp is most important in the higher quality lumber anyway.

The sticker spacing is what caught my attention (along with the neat stacking job) and a reason I was wondering how the pile was doing. 

[Dan_Shade]

I hold the philosophy that "more weight is better".  I put about 80 lbs on top of each row of stickers, and use a sticker every 24 inches or so, my next stack will have stickers every 18".

for my weights, i get plastic rectangular planters, the middle sized one, and fill them with concrete mix.  I can fill two of them with one 80lb bag.

[Tom]

Keeping in mind that the space between stickers is dead air and hard to move, I think it is beneficial to use smaller sticker spacings.  Most hardwoods do better with 18" spacings. 

I've also experienced entire stacks of wood lifted by the one errant board on the bottom that decided to warp.   That makes me think that it would take more weight than some concrete blocks to hold the stack down.   You're probably talking more on the order of a Sherman Tank parked on top of it.  \

Other than safety in high winds, I'm not so sure that the straps do much good either.   They loosen as the wood dries. 

A cover, like a sheet of tin, is almost a necessity.

[jimF]

What type of warping - Cupping?  How is the plastic covering it - is there much are flow?  If it is cupping and there is little airflow that is the problem.  The slower you dry lumber the more cupping you will get.  Weight does little good unless there is so much that it is a real job to put it on. Speeding up the drying is much more productive.

[Frank_B]

Everyone - thanks!  Your insights and suggestions are exactly what I need!

The stickers are about 48" apart - obviously way too far!  That will be the first order:  make more stickers and restack.  I'll make three more supports like you see in the photo and end up with stickers at least every 24".  The next step will be to add more weight on the top.  I don't have a sherman tank, but do have more concrete blocks, so I'll just use them.  The concrete filled flower boxes sound like a great idea!  And I'll restack with the best boards on the bottom.  And could someone comment on whether turning a warped board over will help flatten the warp?  Or, once a board is warped, it that the end?

As far as the 'cupping' question, I guess I don't really know what that means.  The 'warp' is across the width of the board - if viewed from the end, the board would look like a shallow smile.  I'll take a snap shot of it this afternoon and see if I can post it for everyone's viewing pleasure.  It looked like the ones that were warping were lifing up from the sticker about a quarter of an inch - the boards are a little over nine inches wide.

And thanks again for everyone's input - I appreciate the advice.

Frank

[beenthere]

The warp across the width is referred to as 'cup' and will happen with flat sawn boards. If cupped, they probably should be ripped before trying to plane the cup out of them. Or you might do that when you restack the pile, if convenient.

I'd turn them over when restacking, but probably not any real advantage one way or another.

You might orient the re-stacked pile to take advantage of the prevailing wind, or at least be sure the 'cover' doesn't restrict the flow of air through the pile between the stickers.

Have fun.

[Frank_B]

Okay - I understand 'cupped' is the correct term that should have been used instead of 'warped' - my own warped understanding got in the way of clearly communicating the problem...

Here's the covered stack...  It sits so the prevailing southern wind goes through the stack sideways.


Here's a shot of the cupping...


I'll be ripping before planing.  And thanks again for all the sage advice and wisdom.

[Tom]

Other than the number of stickers, I think your stack looks pretty good.   

[Frank_B]

Well, several months have passed, and the wood is still stacked outside the kitchen window.  Only had one thunderstorm so far this spring that caused any problems.  The tarp stayed on the stack, but the wind broke the meager framing that supported the tarp.  At any rate, the wood continues to air dry.  The cupping didn't get any worse, and there's no mold or mildew visible.  The only difference from the pictures posted earlier is additional stickers - I tore the stack down and added supports every 18" or so and restacked the wood with stickers immediately above the supports.

At any rate, I have a couple of questions...  First, my son-in-law bought me a moisture meter from Harbor Freight so I could check the moisture contect of the wood.  It is called a Cen-Tech, takes a 9V battery and, well, that's about all I know about moisture meters.  Can anyone tell me if this meter can accurately tell what the moisture content is?  And please don't mention I asked to my son-in-law.  He's a great kid, loves my daughter dearly, and I love him like my own - I just want to know if this meter is a legitimate tool, and can it be trusted to be accurate? 

And the second question:  Following the directions that came with the meter, the white oak is showing 13 - 14%.  If I take the wood to a kiln operator, what should I expect to hear?  Because the wood has been stacked and covered for several months, and is dried to a point, should that have any impact on the money I should be prepared to pay for taking the wood to 6%?

Thanks,
Frank

[Bob Smalser]

Air drying stacks:

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009419

The wood is Pacific MNadrone from a record-sized tree....one of the most difficult to dry straight.

[brdmkr]

I don't dry wood for others (yet!), but I would think you should get a break on the drying.  In fact, I read an earlier post where one of the members charges for the amount of time your wood stays in the kiln.  Because much of the moisture has been removed, you should require less time in the kiln.  Not really sure how kiln operators in your area charge, but I'd explain the current moisture content and ask if there is a price break.  When I get kilns set up (maybe months, maybe years), I intend to charge for the time in the kiln. 

[raycon]

  You could weigh a couple of boards every other day for a week or 3 and see if there losing any more weight. If they're still losing water there not at EMC (E=Equilibrium) .  Would not hurt to get the boards off to the kiln if there below 20%.  I'd expect the cost to be 1/3 of what it would of been to go from green to 6%. 
For the meter go to the kiln operators place and try it out on his kiln stickers and  against his meter. I'm sure he'd get a kick out of  checking its accuracy. 
 


 

[Den Socling]

First the meter: I wouldn't expect it to be very accurate but the readings sound very accurate. Maybe it works! 

Now for the wood: lot's of companies predry to reduce drying cost and, if they have crappy kilns, to reduce degrade. I would think that, if you delivered that pack stickered and banded, somebody would add it to their charge. And it wouldn't be the drying charge for green wood.

[Frank_B]

Thanks for the suggestion to take the meter to the kiln - he's just down the road a piece.  I'll take it by his place tomorrow and see if it reads the same as his.

As far as banding and delivering the stack intact - man - do I wish I could do that!   My heavy equipment is a Sears 18 horse, 42 inch cut lawn mower with a little wagon.  I'm dreading taking the stack down and loading it onto the trailer - I may have to cut some of the length off so it doesn't drag on the road 

At any rate, I'm hoping we're close to working with the wood, and can finish getting it dried for not a lot of cash.  The local kiln operator told me .30/bft last summer, and I saw him at a home show a few weeks back - he still wants .30/bft.  There's roughly 375 bft between the hickory and white oak, so that would be about $112.50 to get it dried.

Thanks,
Frank

[woodbeard]

Is there any reason the wood for the trailer decking really needs to be kiln dried? I would think that air dried would be fine for this application. Many people even use it green. Just a thought. 

[Frank_B]

Is there any reason the wood for the trailer decking really needs to be kiln dried? I would think that air dried would be fine for this application. Many people even use it green. Just a thought.

Fortunately, cooler heads and time to think has prevailed...  trailer decking is no longer on the table.  There are two projects for the wood currently being discussed.  First, are small tables modeled after work my Dad did before he passed away.  Having something like he put together made from lumber that came from our woods would be nice for my kids.  Second, my wife - soon to be 1st time grandmother - thinks I should be building a couple of toy boxes for the fresh crop of kids that will be coming our way.  I learned a long time ago not to argue with that woman! 

Besides, after coddling this wood for nearly a year, it seemed downright silly to bolt it to a trailer bed...

[woodbeard]

Ya, thats partly why I use it green for stuff like that- so I don't get too attached to it.