10 Years After Graduation Study--Links?

[BCCrouch]

http://forums.about.com/ab-forestry/messages/?msg=2861.1

Might anyone here be able to add anything pertinent?  :-/

[Tom]

BC, I didn't see that conversation but I've experienced it.  Studied Entomology and Botony in school, ended up in Computers. Quit computers and ended up sawing wood.

It's the experiences that are important.  If one wishes to remain in his schooled endevor, then he should probably consider punching his own clock.  Working for yourself is the best of all worlds anyway even if you have to do something else to earn a living while you do it.

[Bro. Noble]

Tom,

I hate to get all surs (that one syllable word for serious in Arkansas ) on you, but just have to add my 2 cents. Having fallen off of the socio-economic ladder many years ago,  I find a lot of things are more important than money and 'important positions'.  For example being able to sleep at night knowing that you have put in a good days work doing something worthwhile and that you enjoy.  Being able to knock off early to do stuff with your family,  or just being available when they need you.  Being able to work outside in the beauty that God created.  

Besides money is a poor way to measure Wealth.

THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE:
Spending money you don't have to buy things you don't need to impress people you don't know or like.  

You can have my share of that.

Noble

[BCCrouch]

Well, Noble, that's a nice load of pabulum, but the real world demands a bit more--student loan, truck payments, and the rest of the EXPENSIVE business of life.  With a M.S. in Forestry and a B.S. in Biology minoring in Conservation, I'm rather pidgeon-holed into natural resource management employment.  I've found out the hard way that no matter how gung-ho you might be, H. R. managers in other fields will take one look at my resume and write me off as someone looking for temporary work until something in natural resources opens up.

[Tom]

I know what Noble is speaking of and we seem to carry the same message.

1. Don't be afraid to work out of your field.
2. Don't except a job as a handout but rather as a stepping stone.
3. You don't get rich working for the other man
4. There is self satisfaction working for ones self.
5  If you can't find work in your field, make the work for yourself and become self employed. (even, as I said, if you have to have another job to support you)

Now that I have served my pablum, understand that I emphathize with your predictament.  Salaries for a Doctorate in entomology from the Government don't compare with salaries for a BS in the public arena.  The public arena doesn't offer many jobs for Doctorates...so......if you wish to be compensated for your knowledge then you have to go out there and sell it.  That usually means that you work for yourself.

There is a great need for "affordable" foresters in this country who are willing to help manage woodlots and plantations in the less than 500 acre catagory.  The Government is encouraging landowners to be a part of the Stewardship program but is not providing the management support that it spouts.

An enterprising forester could develop a customer base of many small forests if he would be willing to actually help in the management, timber harvest, replanting and recreational portions of job.  That means that he would have to be willing to speak on the landowners behalf in confrontations with city planners, tax assessors, environmental groups wishing disruption of trees as a business, and other areas that the average land owner lacks the expertise or apparent qualifications.

You pick up a nickel here, a nickel there and pretty soon you're counting dollars.  More importantly, you are building a name for yourself that, if done properly, will have everyone knocking on your door.  There are too few who approach a "service" business with actual determination to perform a service.  If you have customers who believe in you and you actually do good, then success is at the end of the road and you may find yourself written up in the text books.

[Bro. Noble]

BC,

I wasn't knocking working for someone else at all.  Working in resource conservation should also give one a lot of satisfaction.

My point was that a person should spend his life on worthwhile activities that he enjoys.

As a farmer and sawmiller,  it bothers me when people talk about how much they have invested in education.  What I have invested in land, cattle, farm machinery, and sawmill equipment far outweigh the cost of my BS and MS. even though the latter was expensive for me as I had a wife and two children by then.  I worked hard for all of it and have no regrets.  The degrees were necessary for me to do what satisfied me at the time.  Things change with time.

Another factor that has been important for my satisfaction reguardless of my occupation was people I worked with.  Having good co-workers can make a less than perfect job a good experience. I am thankful to have worked with some really great ones.

Noble

[Bro. Noble]

I been hauling hay since that last post,  Was thinking about past jobs,work experiences etc that thisconversation brought to mind.

Came in to cool off (Boy it's Hot today) and thought I'd tell you about Elmo.

I'm not changing his name because he's by no means innocent.

Elmo finished his formal education about 70 years ago and was just loafing around, fishing, shooting pool etc.  Didn't have anything, didn't want anything.

In town one day, Elmo came across one of his old school buddies.  His friend was driving a shiny new auto and told Elmo he bought it with all the money he was making as a carpenter's helper in Kansas City.

Elmo went to KC with his friend and got on with the same crew.

A few weeks later,  the crew was sitting in the shade eating their lunch and shooting the bull.  The old guys were agreeing that as soon as they could afford to, they were going to buy a little farm in the hills and hunt and fish all the time.

Elmo reassessed his situation and quit and went home.  He already had what these guys were spending their life working for.

Noble

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't doubt that 1/2 of all respondents were no longer in the forest industry.  The problem is that most never got jobs in the industry to begin with.  

Most probably leave the field due to the low pay rate.  Too many applicants chasing too few jobs.  The other reason is the poor work conditions.  You got to take the good with the bad.

For foresters, you can work for the government or industry or be a consultant.  Government jobs are hard to come by and really don't pay that well.  Many are tech jobs.

Industry jobs generally involve buying timber.  That is a dog-eat-dog business.  High grading takes over your management knowledge, since you need to buy timber and make money.  You start making excuses why you did certain things to protect your credibility.  That takes a toll, and soon you are disenchanted.

Other mill jobs like running equipment, buying logs, scaling timber and lumber don't require BS degrees.  But, the turnover rate is probably lower, since there is a lower amount of stress.  It also offers good potential for working your way up the food chain.

There are good consultants and bad consultants.  It depends on their motives.  Many consultants in my area are unemployed procurement foresters, maintaining the same degree of high grading.  Others are recent grads that can't find work, so they become a consultant.  There is just so much timber that can be sold at any given time.  Sooner or later, many of these consultants will drop out.

When I graduated from college, I sent out 200 job resumes and didn't even get an interview.  So, I went to work holding the dumb end of a tape for a survey crew.  $2.10 per hour.

Then I went onto construction inspection.  Still not in my profession.  But, I still sent letters.

I finally got a job setting chokers in Oregon.  That was my foot in the door.  A BS degree and I'm setting chokers.  But, I learned things they didn't teach in college.  Physical labor was one of them.

I went on to inspecting utility poles.  A great job if you are single.  This put me on production.

From there I went to work at a sawmill.  I started stacking lumber, went on to mill foreman, then procurement forester.  I learned the industry from the inside of the tree to the outside.

I then went into consulting work.  I did timber work for 7 years before I drifted back to the mill level.  I prefer dealing with lumbermen over selling timber.  I now do the sawing at a small mill.  I am still self-employed and get paid solely on production.  

I perservered because this is what I like to do.  I started at the bottom and worked my way to the top.  But, I have made myself a commodity.  The degree opens up the doors, you have to make yourself a valued commodity to either your clients or your employer.  Until you can do that, your degrees are just initials you put after your name.

[Jeff]

Ron, how do you go about being a self employed sawyer? Does the mill still pay comp on you or are you responsible for all your insurance coverage? Is this a better deal for you or the mill or both?  Interesting concept to me, all of the sudden it seems one would be able to advertise your service to the highest bidder.

[Jeff]

When I say self employed sawyer, I am talking about in the context of the large commercial mill and not owning a mill.

[BCCrouch]

Ron,

You are precisely the guest lecturer that each and every fisheries, forestry, & wildlife 101 class needs to hear from in the beginning of the semester.  Of course, the professors at MSU would likely have you shot before you drew near their classrooms with such heresy.  The dismal light you cast upon the current state of natural resource management might just dissuade a few of the freshmen from attempting to enter what can only be considered a moribund field.

[Ron Wenrich]

BC

When I went to college, I had a mentor who kind of took me under his wing and told me about his experiences.  He did time in British Columbia, Missouri, and South America.  He worked mills and logging shows.  I used to spend hours just sitting in his office and learning.  

But, he was an outcast from the rest of the faculty.  He had actual job experience and no Ph D.  He only taught 2 courses - sawmilling and logging.  He did no research, but took care of job placement.  No other member of the faculty had actual job experience.  That is the failing of the school system.  

[Ron Wenrich]

Jeff

My situation is that I have always been an independent subcontractor to the sawmill business.  I currently have only one client, but have had several over the years.  

I have to cover all my own insurance.  I'm a little lax on that since I don't have error and omission insurance.  No liability, just disability insurance.  I have no workman's comp.  My wife covers all the medical and dental with her job.  I've only been hurt on the job once, and that cost a toe.

I get a higher than average pay because I charge by the bd ft.  It all depends on the mill set up.  Small mills get charged more, since I can't make production.  

Mills save that 17% workman's comp, which I usually collect.    But, I give them dependable service, and bring them buyers and keep customers.  During the last downturn, we picked up buyers.  That was due to the quality I produce.

I set the time which is convenient for me to saw.  I work 40 hrs or less.  When there is a breakdown, I call someone to fix it right.  The mill also sub-contracts the mechanical end.  I have also started to charge for hitting trash metal.  Not my fault as I didn't buy or mark the timber.

I also give advice on mill set up and cutting orders.  They can follow my advice or not.  I don't fight them, it's their operation.  Their last foul-up cost probably $20K in lost production.  Last year it was $50K because of poor log yard management.  But, they're catching on!

I also make myself available to other mills for mill studies and minimal sawing, but I have found that most mill owners have all the answers.  Usuallly, the answer is that stumpage is too high.  Not, how to improve the operations.

[BCCrouch]

Private sector experience and candor are both in short supply when amongst the ivy halls and ivory towers of academia, it would seem.  If the incoming class heard you speak or opened their university e-mail account to find an honest and accurate assessment of the current market situation, I'd be willing to bet that at least 25% of them would soon opt for a different field of study.  I cannot say with absolute certainty that I'd have chosen an entirely different line of study, but there's a good chance I'd have defied Robert Frost and taken the path more traveled.

[Frank_Pender]

I do not know for sure how much of the 2cents on the dollar are left in change one the table, but I will try and but some in this bank.  At 12 years of age I convinced my father I could be a cowboy and needed 30 head of feeder cattle.  We singned a contract his lawyer drew up and in was in the hole for $1,275.  Upon arriving at the farm, I discovered a new occupation, veternary work.   they all had shipping fever, scours and lice.  I became an executioner also.   I had to four of them down as I could not save them.  I also became aninventor, as some of them had to be lifted off the ground to get circulation moving once they got down due to fever.  the next business was that of becoming a business major in marketing my cattle.   Sometimes I learned the hard way, but most often the cattle buyers at the auction took pity on a 13 year old.  What is this now, 5 occupations and no special degrees, other than experience?   In the twelve years I also had a nursery business of Rhodies and azelias (sp) for 5 years.  This basic series of roles went on for twelve years.   It purchased 3 brand new cars, 5 years of college (BS and MS  in education), new home (self built).    Over the last 33 years I have been a politician (sill am), educator, faller/bucker, timber consultant, sawmiller,  inventer for my special needs and retired.  Each of us are the total sum of all that we have experienced.  Sometimes we are not at the mercy of an argument.   And speaking of poets, Emily, I feel said it the     best, "I am going all the while..."  33 years after graduation.

[BCCrouch]

*bump*

Does no one else visit Nix's website?

[RobK]

There is a great need for "affordable" foresters in this country who are willing to help manage woodlots and plantations in the less than 500 acre catagory.  The Government is encouraging landowners to be a part of the Stewardship program but is not providing the management support that it spouts.

An enterprising forester could develop a customer base of many small forests if he would be willing to actually help in the management, timber harvest, replanting and recreational portions of job.  That means that he would have to be willing to speak on the landowners behalf in confrontations with city planners, tax assessors, environmental groups wishing disruption of trees as a business, and other areas that the average land owner lacks the expertise or apparent qualifications.

You pick up a nickel here, a nickel there and pretty soon you're counting dollars.  More importantly, you are building a name for yourself that, if done properly, will have everyone knocking on your door.  There are too few who approach a "service" business with actual determination to perform a service.  If you have customers who believe in you and you actually do good, then success is at the end of the road and you may find yourself written up in the text books.

This is exactly what I want to do! My problem is how to get there from where I am. I'm a software engineer. I'm trying to figure out a plan for getting forestry training, and starting up a buisness free-lance consulting for small and midsize forest owners. I know so little right now, but I know enough to know that I would love doing that everyday for a living.  Luckily, I have Purdue just across the Wabash river from me. I got my CS degree there too.

I'm also curious as to how many people are working in the forest industry who did not go to school for it. What's the ratio of drift in to drift out?

[Ron Scott]

Continue to work as a Software Engineer while you continue to get a degree in Forestry there at Purdue's School of Forestry,

A consulting forest needs to be certified, registered, or liscensed as such in most places to make any $$$ and to do so one needs a degree in forestry as a minimum.

In this day of advancing technology of GPS, Computers in the woods, etc. your softwear engineering should be a good complement to the forestry degree.

I graduated in Forestry during the "slide-rule" days and sure wish I had some of your computer skills today.

[Tom]

Rob,

(You've been given the best advice already, Education}

"How" should be one of the goals of the University.  It does no good to teach somebody a lot of jargon without teaching them how to use it.  Unfortunately our school systems don't spend much time on teaching you how to make a living or how to reach a goal.

I wish I could be of more specific help but can only speak in generalities.  I have been down this road several times but in different fields.  You have to develop a following.  In the Forestry arena, I guess you would have to be where the action is and where you could meet customers in  a friendly atmosphere.  (I'd call this a form of Advertising)

Hang around and volunteer your services at the County Agents office.  Visit the District Foresters office and become acquainted with them.  If They know what you are trying to do they will pass the word on to landowners.  They have lists of consulting foresters also.

Go to city council meetings when Tree ordinances or fire fighting subjects are being discussed.  Maybe you could initiate some of this conversation yourself.  Become someone that the Newpaper recognises.

Hang around the old foresters in your area.  Old timers can be a world of good information.

Join Clubs that plant trees.  Get envolved in the local Garden Club.  Write "letters to the editor" and sign your name as an authority.  Seek out the small land owner, you can get the names form the County Forester.  A little free advice, a little time spent in his woods, an explanation of what your "company" is all about and what the charges and benefits would be should be in order. (become his friend)

There is an old saying: "If you throw enough XXXX  at the barn wall, some of it will stick.




 

[swampwhiteoak]

I am actually surprised that half of the respondents were still involved in forestry at all.  I'm close to BC's age and I would guess 5-7 of us out of a class of 24 or so are actually employed in forestry related jobs.  Like RonW said, so few jobs, and lots of people that want them.  I applied for a FS job after graduation (3 openings, 298 qualified applicants).  Without veterans status or peace corps time, I gave up on getting a federal job.  

The other thing many students don't take into account is the likelihood of having to move.  Unlike a lot of professions, forestry jobs can't be found everywhere at any given time.  Although I suppose you could consult a lot of places, I think one needs to get some quality experience before they go into business for themselves.  That usually means working for someone else, whereever they might be.