Log lot management problems

[Bibbyman]

Has anyone given any thoughts to their logs and “finished good” yard(s).

Our log lot is always in some kind of mess no matter how hard I try to keep it organized. 

We started out 11 years ago just going to do a little custom sawing on the weekends.  We’d never have over a couple dozen logs around the mill at any one time.  Mary wouldn’t let me take down the fence across from the mill because it was her horse lot.  Well,  the fence soon got set back and then later set back again and then later moved all together and then she shipped the horses all together.



We’ve expanded the lot a couple of times in recant years and just this spring pulled up fence, leveled and cleared about doubled the size.  (Still needs gravel and packed.)

Right now we’ve got a couple thousand logs on the lot – maybe far more at any one time.  About half are owned by us and the other half is owned by about a half dozen customers – some having as few as one and our log broker having as many as a thousand. 

We’ve got some customer’s logs stacked on the back of our lot that have been moved a couple of times over a couple of years.  We see them and ask “When are you ready to get those logs sawed”..  “Soon. Well let you know.”

It’s getting to be quite a chore to keep all this straight.   We are continually moving and sorting. We’ve put over 900 hours on our Terex in two years.  Plus we still use our tractor w/loader to move slabs, etc.

One problem we have is when we get new logs,  we sort them out and they go over old logs.  Sometimes we don’t get down to the old logs for a couple of years – unless we make an effort to dig through a hundred logs to get to them.   Most of the time the oak logs are still sound enough for fence lumber but the sap is too far gone.  Some logs are just junk by then.

Our “finished good” storage is a mess too.  We’ll saw out a custom order and set it out expecting the owners to come right away to pick it up.  But they seldom do.  Then we saw out more orders and they are setting around.  By the time the earlier customer comes to pick up his lumber, it’s behind a couple of others.  And they’re always blocking our lumber somehow.  Mary often times pulls more logs and saws out an order rather then look for and dig out something we’ve already sawn.

I sure envy sawmills that saw only for themselves and then only one product.  Up the highway is a stave mill that,  I hear,  saws 50-80 mbf/day.  Yet their log yard is not that much bigger than ours.  They have quite a few logs but probably only 3-5 days worth at any one time.

Anyone else got this problem?? 

[arj]

I have that problem TOO!!!!!!!!! Only on a smaller scale. Can`t wait for some good suggestions.
                                          arj

[Kirk_Allen]

I by no means have that big of a problem but here is what I did with my SMALL log lot. 

I too serperate them by species.  I have 8 different rows of logs.  Each a different species.  What I did when I set this up is ensure that I can get to each row from either the front or the back.  Another words, I could pull my mill up and cut on either side of each row.  This lets me focus on the old logs first with the option of doing fresh logs, like from a customer. 

I was piling them up with only one side being accesable.  That was a nightmare.  Same problem you mention.  Old logs NEVER get cut. 

Havent had a problem with the customers getting their order YET.  I have a feeling Monday when the farmer sees how many posts I got out of his Osage logs he is going to freak and tell me he dont need 250 posts  

[Frank_Pender]

Kir, you asre toooo organized.  I like the mess, most of the time.  It shows folks I am doing something besides sorting logs all the time.

[Brucer]

Anyone else got this problem?? 

I suspect it's more a case of "anyone else not got this problem?"

When I sawed for Louis last year he'd just got set up on his newly-rented bit of land. He started off trying to keep it ogranized -- room for a truckload of logs, room to pile the orders, even room to sort the big orders by size of timber. Things were organized but real crowded until we finally shipped out our first truck load of timbers and suddenly we had all this free space to put stuff. Didn't take but a week to lose control. After that we were never able to get back on top of things. There was a heck of a lot of shifting and reshifting of logs and lumber. This was a much smaller scale than your operation -- between 12 and 50 logs (45 footers) on the ground at any one time. Same problem, though.

I'm only just getting set up myself this year, and I'm dtermined to keep things organized  . Easy to say, hard to do. I'm aiming for small piles of logs (one for each species) with space to start new piles before the older ones get buried. This is not space-efficient as I'll have a much higher proportion of access corridors. That means I'll have to keep the wood moving through the system.

Customer's logs and species that are low in demand will get stored farthest from the mill, in various "nooks and cranies" around the property. I'll have to shift them a considerable distance when they need to be sawed, but only the once.

[Bibbyman]

Here are some pictures I took on the last day of 2004.


I'm standing on a stack of logs looking north. (See my shadow aginst the logs ouside the sawshed).  The area in the upper left is where we cleared for more lot. It's hard to tell but there are 4-5 TT loads of walnut on that right side of the road.


This is taken from the same spot but of the left side of the drive.


Now I've moved back and climbed up on a pile of logs on the back side of the lot.  The picture is of the back side of the logs in the picture above. These logs are our oak sawlogs sorted buy length - two rows of 8' and two of 10'.  We can get to them from the "steet side" or the back side.



A little further up the road. To the left of the 10' oak is the 12' oak logs. Note that the path to circle around the oak logs has been cut off by another load of wanut being unload right in the way..  There is limited space for a TT to turn around and unload or unload.


Some more on the back side.  There are some of our 14' and longer back here and a lot of stuff that'd come in and not sorted. 
 
Not shown are the stacks of our red oak grade logs that I was standing on to take these pictures - plus a bunch of odds and ends back in behind me.   As it was near sundown,  I couldn't get a picture of them facing into the sun.  But you get an idea.

[Quartlow]

I only wish I had that problem 

But it wouldn't take long for me to get in that situation. Real estate is at a premium around the barnyard. I've discussed it with the cousin and my solution is I'm going to store logs in the pasture when I run out of room in the barn yard.

[Ron Wenrich]

Most guys can't keep a handle on log inventories.  It results in several problems.  The biggest problem is degrade.  Our medium sized operation probably lost about $50,000 due to degrade in tulip poplar and red oak.  Once the sap stain sets in, the value drops really quick.  You also lose due to end check.

The other problem is that when the logs start to dry out, your sawing time is increased, so you fall even further behind.  It also increase your sawing costs by dulling blades quicker and slowing your feed rate to accomodate hardness.

Access to both ends is pretty much key to keeping fresh logs.  You can also raise them up by putting logs on pulpwood.  It keeps the logs out of the mud, and that should help through out the operation.  

Either increase your production, or put a halt on logs coming in.  Your broker has dumped a lot of logs, and now you are his concentration yard.  That's OK, but his logs are losing value.  

We eventually managed to bring the inventory under control by regulating woods cutting.  You don't have that option.  

As for the lumber yard, that's a tough one.  We saw for commercial interests and have to store lumber for only 1-2 weeks,   We usually push out at least a load a day, somedays 2.  But, they are seperated to several different destinations.

We do have stuff that is saved until a customer comes around.  We have lumber that has rotted and then gets thrown into the chipper.  

The only thing you can do is stack it up.  I have seen stacking decks made from 6x6 timbers where you could get into both sides of the stack.  They are put 2' apart to accomodate sticked lumber.  Each rack is 16' long and can hold about 8-10 Mbf.  It all depends on your equipment, but you can stack really high without it falling over.

[Bibbyman]

The pictures above were taken at the end of 2004.  Here's how we got that way.

A couple of winters ago we ran out of logs. Orders remained high (for us) and the weather conditions were bad so the loggers couldn’t cut.  We were hand to mouth for a couple of months – even resorted to cutting some of our own trees to fill orders.

Mary does not like to run out of things so when she has an opportunity to buy, she does.  We had enough to go through the next winter and it wasn’t as bad logging conditions.  Then last year the loggers just kept on bringing in logs.  Had one part time logger have a falling out with the land owner and left him with a good number of logs yarded up and cut in the woods.  After a year,  it all got settled and the land owner brought the logs to us.  By then they’d already started to sap rot.

So that’s how we got so much inventory on December 31, 2004.

This past winter has been kind to loggers and we even had a very warm dry spell at the end of winter.  Logs kept coming in even though we were not buying many.  A BUNCH from the log broker and a lot from farmers wanting custom sawing done.

We have managed to reduce a good many of our own inventory of logs filling orders and consolidated some of the piles.

Our biggest loss is with the red oak grade logs.  The sap has turned gray to getting soft.  Plus the market has dropped.  We’re saying some of them up into farm lumber as we can get about the same return (now).  This is our fault because we should have sawn them last fall and winter but couldn't get around to it for all the other work going on..

[Minnesota_boy]

Something that may help out is an older truck with a loader on it.  It can allow you to reach over the pile and take the older logs from the back first, if the pile isn't too long.  The truck doesn't have to be road-worthy and won't need a license if it stays on your property.  Trucks are made for hauling and can take a lot of wear and tear off your Terex.  You can park it at the end of your live deck and just load the amount on at a time that you need.  It is an extra expense and will require maintenance but it may save enough on your Terex to pay off.

[Tom]

I know that it is threatening to ones reputation but "production" is the only real answer I can think of.  That means another sawmill and sawyer.   Perhaps your having another smaller mkll that could pick up the slack would be an option.  It might be somethig that a son could run without having to depend on his being there every day.  It may have wheels and provide him with an opportunity to start his own portable custom sawing business.

Another option may be to hire someone, within range, who has a portable custom sawing businesss.  That would give you the option of higher production without the problems of keeping your own extra equipment busy.

[Gary_C]

I would have to agree with Minesota Boy. Without a knuckle boom loader, a log yard like you are showing will be unmanageable. With either an older truck mounted loader or an older forwarder, you can pick logs from the ends and the middle of the logs. This allows you to stack in long rows and still be able to pick the oldest first without moving the entire row. Also you can easily pick and sort and carry what you need back to the mill.

Check out    http://www.richardsmachinery.com

[Bibbyman]

Yes,  I’ve eyed knuckle boom loaders but we don’t even have a live deck yet.  The Terex with 9’ shooting boom works real well in sorting logs in a stack – I can pick up a log and place it well forward in the stack.  I'm not ready to get yet another piece of euipment to work on and keep running.

Tom, it’s true we need to increase our production.  We have the business and logs.

Our two sons are not an option.  They’ve been introduced to hard work and don’t like it.  4-5 years back we bought a second WM mill because one son said he’d run it 3 days a week.   Got it home and I can’t remember him even running it once.  “Other things” kept coming up – like deer season, fishing, etc.  After two years,  we sold them both and stepped up to the LT40HDE25 Super.

I think a more viable option would be to turn Mormon and get 3-4 good hard working wives.  But keeping them all happy may be more work than what we’re up against now.   

I just posted that we were working down our backlog of logs.  Well,  I got home the other night and the “receiving area” was covered with logs. Asked Mary where they came from.  Said one of the bigger logging outfits were logging off a neighbor and wanted to sale us some of their top logs because they had to haul them so far (and we were just a short distance.) She told them she needed 14’ and would take some 12’s and 16’s.   She got about half 14s,  some 12’s and the rest 8s and 10s.   About 1/4 were blocking log at best to cull.   She’s not paid for them yet – I told her to sort out all the junk and tell them we’re not buying them.  They can take them back or leave them.  Maybe this will slow them down from bringing in their junk logs and “dumping” them on us.

[leweee]

I think a more viable option would be to turn Mormon and get 3-4 good hard working wives.  But keeping them all happy may be more work than what we’re up against now.   

Trust me ....a knuckleboom would be alot cheaper & less work to maintain
Sounds like you need a gate & lock on that recieveing area....and big sign...
" NO UNAUTHURIZED DUMPING"

[trim4u2nv]

Real estate is at a real premium here.   One big problem we had was raw material and finish goods storage.   Found by using an acess road (behind or around the piles instead of 1 side) helped quite a bit.  If you're lucky enough to have the space for more roadway.  Another trick in a tight space was to camber the lumber in smaller piles at a 45 degree angle so the forklift could lift over the pile in front of it.  Also this made maneuvering easier just like in an angled parking lot.  Its a lot easier to back a forklift at a 45 degree angle than a 90 degree angle in a narrow aisle.  Just get a set of dominoes and a copy of your survey (or aerial photo) map and have each domino represent a stack of lumber.  Label them with avery file labels.  Its a lot easier to move dominoes than a bunk of lumber in the planning and tracking.  A crane or loader would sure help but they always break when you need them the most.

[Bibbyman]

I think one of our problems is that we do a lot of “saw to order” business.  One guy calls and wants 10 – 12’ 6x6s so we dig through the 12’ log stack to find nice straight logs – not too big and with good hearts to saw them out.  We may need to sort through 50 logs to find them.   Next guy needs 100 1x6s 8’ long but he wants them out of white oak.

I bet every log on the lot gets moved an average of 5 times before it hits the mill.  But you can’t guess what the next guy wants and there ain’t enough room under roof to stick and store the lumber.  We’ve sold a good big of air dried lumber we’ve sawn while filling out other orders but only if it’s still bright.  If it’s been in the sun and turned gray,  it don’t sale too good.

Another problem is all the small custom sawing jobs we still get.  I’ve been referring some of our new customers to Mule-Man and to other mills in the area and some have went that way but we still keep picking up new customers.  Our “word of mouth” has got too big!

Real estate in acres is not a problem as we have 215 of them.  We have 1/4 mile of privet road from our property line until we get to the mill that we could dump logs onto.  It just that the logs just keep getting further from the mill.  I’m trying to open up the area across from the mill to “stage” logs for our next run.

[JimBuis]

Well Bibbyman your situation reminds me of a story..........   I work in a school maintenance shop with two other guys.  One of 'em's my boss who's been here for about 10 years, so he's got lots of ideas about what works and what doesn't.  My other partner and I have only been here two years although we are both a bit older and more experienced than our boss.    The shop has always had the tools organized on peg boards and some in plastic boxes hung on the wall.  We never had a tool chest.  We could never find ANYTHING without spending more time looking for tools than it takes to do the repair job.   I talked him into getting a real nice stackable tool cabinet and tool chest, then I spent a good bit of time organizing everything into it.   Well.....my boss nowadays......comes up to me and asks me where he can find a screwdriver or some similar thing.  My answer    Duh......maybe in the screwdriver drawer of the tool chest??

The moral of my story?  Organizing is time consuming and sometimes frustrating, but worth it in the long run.   The problem with most of us is that we don't think we have time to organize to begin with or that we don't have time to stick with the plan over time.  It is ironic though that we DON'T have time to organize, but we DO have time to hunt for stuff.

I'd set up an inventory plan for those logs and no matter how painful get it set up and stick to it.  I think you'd find it more profitable than having some percentage of your logs go bad on you for not being able to get to them or having to move everything continually.

[Dan_Shade]

Jim, If i'm not hunting for something, then I'm not doing anything 

it no fun doing a project if you can find all your tools in 10 minutes, and if it weren't for the miscellaneous stuff that I did find in my adventures, I'd never get inventory of what I do have!

Do you sort your logs by grade/diameter, Bibbyman? that could help you a little bit too

[smwwoody]

Bibby

If I remember right that terex has a bobcat tool bar on it doesn't it?  Would a grapple on it help with your sorting?

Woody

[Bibbyman]

My organization method is to leave my tools where I last used them.  Unless some one comes along and uses them or puts them away,  I can always (well, sometimes) remember where I used them last and go find them.

The majority of our logs are sorted by type and length.  And yes,  I pick out what I want to save back for grade and put them in a pile.   We don’t get to buy grade logs but there are always a log or two in a bunch that will look to have some good grade in them. 

But we get overwhelmed at times and those times are becoming the norm, not the exception.

This week,  for example,  we got in several TT loads of walnut and soft maple to be grade sawn for a customer.  We also got in this little "wack" of cedar. 



Just about 450 logs – 8s, 10s, and some 12’.  All nice and plump and good solid red.  Logger says it’s about half,  he’ll bring the rest next week. 

Mary and I worked about 10 hours in the past two days scaling, sorting and stacking these logs.  As we saw them,  we’ll probably sort them again depending on what we are going to saw out of them.

There is one option that could have help our situation a lot but the opportunity has past.  That is to sale some of the logs.  Last winter we had a bad spell around the first of the year.  Local log inventories were low.   I could have probably sold a good bit of the rougher and older rough logs to sawmills trying to keep their RR tie and pallet lumber production going.  But… we were too busy to get that done and by late winter,  the weather conditions improved and the lots were full again.



Woody, Got a grapple,  it does not work as well as the forks.  I do put it on about once a month to clean up butted off ends or pull post or pick up big field stones or pull up heavy sprouts, etc.  But it's forks are too thick to slide under logs.  They are only about 30" long so would only pick up one or maybe two logs at a time.  The clamp closes too slow to be productive.