Yard trees

[etat]

I'm finally getting ready to do something I wish I had been in a position to do years ago.  Hopefully it ain't too late to plant some trees and see em grow up into some shade.

I wouldn't mind having some suggestions and ideas other than what I've read.  Because most of what I've read doesn't exactly cover my situation, or the state I live in.

As I said I want to plant some trees and landscape my yard.  Some of em needs to grow pretty tall to eventually help knock back some of this southern sun which gets hot and muggy in the summertime.

Some of em can be ornamental or not grow so tall.  I've got lots of room.

My worst problem would be the soil around where I need to plant these trees. If I were on a lower part of my property the soil is better but.  I built my house on the highest point on my property.  Up here the soil is heavy heavy red clay type dirt.  Hard as a rock when it dries out in the summertime.  Less than a half of inch of topsoil.  I'll be working on this over the next years.  It doesn't ever soak up much water.  You can break it up with a plow or a disk, drive over it a couple of times and it's just as hard as if the soil was never disturbed.  You go to dig a hole with a hand  post hole digger, or a shovel and you've got your work cut out for you.  Like digging through mild concrete.  Luckily most of my pasture is better ground.

More information.  At my disposal for digging holes or whatever is a little backhoe for the back of a tractor, or a tractor three point hitch post hole digger. 

I would appreciate any advice on types of trees that might do well in this type of soil or advice on how deep to dig or how big a hole to dig or how to modify the soil or whatever.  I've planted a few trees around here before and they DIED in spite of my watering  em. This time I'm ready to dig or modify the soil or bring in truck loads of dirt or pump water from the pond or whatever I have to do.  I don't want to plant any more and kill em and when it comes to trees I don't have no green thumb. 

Please help. 

[SwampDonkey]

CK,

By the way your post reads, it sounds like you need to do some work with your soil. Sounds like a problem with aeration, because 1) it gets hard compacted easily and 2) the trees need aeration (oxygen) to the roots. What I would do is work some sand (or good gravel) and well rotted compost into the top 12 inches of soil with some kind of farm attachment. The sand will let air get in and the rotten compost will help retain moister as well as provide nutrients. Why did I say 12 inches? Because that is where the feeder roots are, the taproot or anchor roots go considerably deeper and I'de recommend using that hoe to dig a dipper hole and mix some sand and mulch into your native soil so it will let the anchor roots go deep enough. I don't think the hole would need be deeper than 2 feet from the surface. Keep in mind that the tree is gonna get bigger and that hole should probably be in a 6 foot radius of where that tree is planted. our gonan have a pretty big hole for a young tree, but it will pay off in the development of that tree. With the rest of the lawn being worked with the sand and mulch to, it will allow soil water to travel and not pool around your tree roots to smother them. Might want to put some rocks in the bottom of the hole too and make sure the sides of the hole are lossened a bit with a shovel to collapse the sides a bit so the roots can penetrate it when spreading and growing. Make sure when planting the new tree you keep the root ball or bare roots within 4 inches of the surface, but not too shallow (<2 inches). Add some water to the hole as you fill in the hole with your new mix of soil. Roll the surface but don't pack it down tight. Water the new surface around the tree once a week for a month as the new leaves emerge.

As I eluded to above, the best time to plant a tree is during it's dormancy, before it leaves out, as early in the year as possible. By June, and this is the same up our way, the leaves are usually elongated (or partially) and the days are getting hot, so the newly planted tree is water stressed trying to maintain stem flow and evaportranspiration during food production. Takes alot of water.  If they don't get enough of this precious liquid they burn up.

This project could get expensive, but I'm certain it will help your situation.

cheers 

[Firewood Farm]

Get in touch with your local forestry department or conservation district or extension service. They will most likely come out and evaluate your soil and make specific recommendations for your situation. And it's free of charge.

You pay your taxes, you might as well get something out of it!

Joe

[SwampDonkey]

Some shade trees for your area would include. I've listed them in order of my preforance, but yours may vary.

boxelder (prune them to grow straight)
basswood
tulip tree
white ash
silver maple
sycamore
water tupelo
red maple
evergreen magnolia
water oak
live oak
willow oak
cherry bark oak
southern red oak
black oak
swamp chestnut oak
overcup oak
white oak
sweetgum

[SwampDonkey]

Ck, I agree with Joe, that it should be your first course of action. It's hard to evaluate a persons situation sit'n in front of a computer. 

[redpowerd]

how do you prune boxelder to grow straight, everywhere i cut them, they shoot back up.

[asy]

CK, I agree totally with what Swampy said in his first post.

I was wondering, do you know if you have any subsurface water and if so, how far down is it?

If you can, it would be worth augering to this depth as the tap root will go down that far, even if it's 10 or 15 feet (or more).

otherwise, it certainly sounds as if you really need to work some compost into the area, or possibly even some 'claybreaker'.

Also the forester thing...  Let us know what he says, out of interest.

asy

[beenthere]

Redpowered
I prune boxelder right at ground level, then fight to keep it at that level. 

A poor tree for anything, IMO, and weak to boot.  Never looked at it as a 'shade' tree.

Sorry, Swampdonkey, I don't know if your list goes bad to best, or best to worst, in 'preforance'. 

[redpowerd]

i try to cut down every boxelder i see, that stuff can take over a barn yard FAST. when i cleard the spot for my log cabin it was an OLD barnyard full of box elder and tall black locust. looks really nice now with all that box elder gone and them huge locust. still have shade.

[SwampDonkey]

red, I'de burn the stump of cut trees. The suckers trees will generally fall over when they get big and the truck rots away. I'de start out with a single stemmed seedling and let it grow free for 10 years. Then cut some of it's lower laterals and forked leaders for another 5 years. It's the narrow angled forks in the limbs to watch for as they will break easier in wind. Also, any real long lateral should be kept cut back to so they don't get too heavy and snap off in wind. Boxelder are high maintenance to keep straight and reduce limb load. They sure have provided some nice shade around the house over the years though. Unfortunately, I lost most of them 7 years ago to ice damage. 

[SwampDonkey]

I agree with you guys with the proliferation of the boxelder. You either like it or hate.

[redpowerd]

seeds are pretty messy too
yer right they do tend to split at them small angled branches, and them lower suckers die off and are a pain to get to.

[tnlogger]

 ck have you got any dairy farmers close by ? what i did with the red dirt on my place was subsoiled as
 deep as i could, then i took a bog and worked it up. i then took the old rotten silage they take off the open pit silage pits and worked it in. now this takes awhile but in the end i had a real good looking lawn
 I planted Bartlet pears with a 3ft. auger as deep as it would go. then worker up a bunch of silage, top soil and sand to plant um.
 Now this worked for me but might have been doumb luck . i also use it to mulch the garden and pats flowers too.

[Ernie]

To kill the box elder, have you tried drilling a few 1/2" holes near the bottom of the trunk and pouring in neat roundup, translocates to the roots and should wipe out all the suckers as well unless Monsanto has developed a roundup resistant  GE modified box elder

Ernie

[Bro. Noble]

In another thread on planting trees,  Ron S.  reccomended checking a soil survey.  I don't think many people understand what Ron was talking about.  The Soil Conservation Service has the soils mapped for about all the land in the U.S.  I have a little training in soils and have taught soils classes in highschool  and the extension service.  I was fairly conscious of the differend soils on our place,  but when they mapped our place about 15 years ago,  they gave me a copy of the map for our area.  I was amazed at the accuracy.  The map identifies the different soil types on your land,  tells many things about the characteristics of that soil including what kind of plants will grow there.  I have mentioned in other threads that we only had one maple tree on our place (and I sold it to Arkansawyer ).  Well there is a little bank above a creek that has a few maples and that is the only place on the farm where I have found any.  It represents probably about .01percent of our land.  The little area is mapped as a different type of soil than any other on the place and sure enough,  that soil type is the only one we have that is supposed to grow maple well.  Made a believer out of me.  I would sure see what kind of plants do well in the type of soil you have and then decide what to do.

Those guys at the USDA off ices get paid well with your taxes,  make them earn a little of it

[SwampDonkey]

Couldn't agree more with Bro_Noble When I listed those species I also consulted the silvics of the species and range. Basswood was the only one out of range, but it is the west of the Mississippi and as far south as the state, so I tossed it in. Also it's fast growing and has broad leaves for shade. The soil would have to be conditioned as explained for it to do well though.

[Roxie]

In regards to Swamp Donkey's suggestion for an evergreen magnolia, may I suggest the Bracken Brown Beauty Magnolia.  It is native to the south, and is evergreen.  I work for a landscape design firm and they recommended this tree for my dense red clay soil.  This tree is magnificent when it blooms.  If you have never seen one, go to:


www.natorp.com/Magnolia'BrownBeauty'.htm

[Chet]

Donk,
I can tell ya never been in da utility tree trimmin' industry, recommending Box Elder.        At da top of da list no less!   

[Chet]

I wonder if it's possible to get dat Emerald Ash Borer to develop a taste for Box Elder.      It might be worth a shot.   

[redpowerd]

will SD ever live that one down?

[Chet]

will SD ever live that one down?

  We ain't gonna let um!         

[Buzz-sawyer]

Until this thread I never knew box elder was a tree, I always thought it was a noxious weed

[Corley5]

They're bug infested too.  Some friends lived in a house with box elders in the side yard and every year the house was invaded by beetle like bugs.  They called 'em box elder bugs   Once the trees were removed the bugs never came back.  #1 one on a yard tree list   Must be a different or a sub species in Canada

[Chet]

To kill the box elder, have you tried drilling a few 1/2" holes near the bottom of the trunk and pouring in neat roundup, translocates to the roots and should wipe out all the suckers as well unless Monsanto has developed a roundup resistant GE modified box elder

Ernie

Ernie,
I don't know what the law is in your country, but in the US it is not only unwise but illegal to us a herbicide that is inconstant with it's labeling. I say this realizing
that labeling in your country may be entirely different than ours.

[etat]

Swamp Donkey and everybody else, (he was first) , I'm really appreciating this advice.  I knew that the soil needed to be modified.  I also like the idea of contacting a soil conservation or forestry service for local advice.  Thanks to the post here at least I'll be somewhat informed when I talk to them and hopefully be able to ask intelligent questions.

I also think asy asked a question that may or may not be relevant to my situation.  I don't know.  As many of you know I have a pond full of fish   very close to my front door.  When digging that pond averaging from 6 to 8 foot deep the reddish clay type dirt would turn to bluish colored clay.  (When dried it turns to a dull Grey)  About a foot or so into that blue clay the ground go wetter and wetter.  That's why I had to have a large part of that pond dug primarily with a track hoe.  A dozer would get stuck in there and a backhoe wouldn't do much better.  The area where that pond is several feet below grade of the hilly area I'm talking about.  I'm saying if there is water or moisture below the area I'm afraid it would take years, if ever for a trees roots to make it's way down that low.  This moisture never makes it's way up through the red dirt in the area I'm talking about though it does in the lower parts of my pasture.  I've got some areas that hardly ever dry out, but that's not where I need to plant trees.  

I think Kim's wanting to borrow the computer for a minute.  We did leave some trees behind we planted at center, namely a apple, a couple of peaches and a couple of maples.  But as I said we haven't had much luck here (used to not know about the Forestry Forum) and we're really excited!

[kcpalmer]

Hey Thanks for all the ideas.  We have had a hard time trying to get trees to grow.  I am ready to get some started I have got a flower bed so far.  Now I am ready for some shade trees to look at and to sit under and watch grow.  Thanks  Kim

[Ianab]

Ernie,
I don't know what the law is in your country, but in the US it is not only unwise but illegal to us a herbicide that is inconstant with it's labeling. I say this realizing
that labeling in your country may be entirely different than ours.

Dont worry too much Chet.

In NZ painting stumps with Roundup IS the official treatment for unwanted weeds by local councils and govt departments.
I think the label basically says "do not drink" 

But you are right - take care with chemicals.

Cheers

Ian

[asy]

I also think asy asked a question that may or may not be relevant to my situation.  I don't know.  As many of you know I have a pond full of fish  very close to my front door.  When digging that pond averaging from 6 to 8 foot deep the reddish clay type dirt would turn to bluish colored clay.  (When dried it turns to a dull Grey)  About a foot or so into that blue clay the ground go wetter and wetter.  That's why I had to have a large part of that pond dug primarily with a track hoe.  A dozer would get stuck in there and a backhoe wouldn't do much better.  The area where that pond is several feet below grade of the hilly area I'm talking about.  I'm saying if there is water or moisture below the area I'm afraid it would take years, if ever for a trees roots to make it's way down that low.  This moisture never makes it's way up through the red dirt in the area I'm talking about though it does in the lower parts of my pasture.  I've got some areas that hardly ever dry out, but that's not where I need to plant trees. 

OI!

Everything I say is relevant!!! 

hehe

Seriously though...  To get big trees, they generally like to push that tap root down into the sub-surface soil. They will push that root through clay.

The reason I asked is because sometimes the sub-surface soil is either too far down to dig to, or too un-defineable to find (as in a wide band of moisture rather than a 'stream').

If you can find it, which it seems you can, if you use the auger to loosen that soil it will reduce the tendency for the tree to become shallow rooted.

The problem you may get with shallow rooting is that the tree will grow, and then panic and bolt to flower then die. It's the tree's basic tendancy to breed before it dies. You'll find that your trees are doing well (visually) and have gorgeous flowers or foliage, then BANG, they die. Leaving you wondering why...

I always panic when I plant something and it either flowers too early, or out of season, or far too prolifically for it's age...  I know it's about to cark it. (that's die, in aussie)

asy

[redpowerd]

just mix some glyphosate in with your bar oil!

[Ernie]

Redpowered

Glyphosate (roundup) is neutralised by contact with dirt,  Does it still work when mixed with oil?

Ernie

[SwampDonkey]

I dunno CK, I think this Swamp Donkey's been bush whacked, shot down, then kicked, and strung up to a boxelder by some kinda forum linch mob.   

[Bro. Noble]

Donk,

If it makes you feel any better,  I shipped some box elder to 'the Big Guy' via the Whitepe express a couple of years ago.  He used it to make a planter for some weeds

[Larry]

To kill the box elder, have you tried drilling a few 1/2" holes near the bottom of the trunk and pouring in neat roundup, translocates to the roots and should wipe out all the suckers as well unless Monsanto has developed a roundup resistant GE modified box elder

Ernie

Ernie,
I don't know what the law is in your country, but in the US it is not only unwise but illegal to us a herbicide that is inconstant with it's labeling. I say this realizing
that labeling in your country may be entirely different than ours.

Chet,
Unless I’m seriously missing something Roundup is labeled for cut stump treatment.  I’m looking at page 49 for 41% Roundup Ultra.  Apply full strength right after cutting the tree.  Also works when ya ring the tree couple of times and apply it to the bottom ring.  Only works during the active growing season.  I was very concerned about it translocating when I first started using it...checked with a forester...he said don't worry...he was right.  Rest of the year we use Toredon.

[redpowerd]

what oil does it say to use for a surfactant?
that would be your bar oil.
we will need info from stinky peterson

[SwampDonkey]

There's a feller here that uses a thinning saw with a glyphosate dispensing gizzmo on the saw head. I can't find a link on the web though and I only saw him demo it at a woodlot field day. It has not been a method excepted by local operations because I think it too high maintenance.

[SwampDonkey]

Red,

I just read a report that mineral oil or deisel have been used in the mix on some test sites in NS, but the concentration of Vision (glyphosate) was 20 - 30 % (gets expensive). With foliar a 2 % concentration was used with water and was almost as effective. That 2 % seems low though. I was thinking at least 5 % is needed according to bulletins issued by Monsanto during the spraying season and if it's a dry season, up to 7 %. Maybe Ernie knows more on that, as I'm not a pesticide applicator.

[Chet]

To kill the box elder, have you tried drilling a few 1/2" holes near the bottom of the trunk and pouring in neat roundup, translocates to the roots and should wipe out all the suckers as well unless Monsanto has developed a roundup resistant GE modified box elder

Ernie

Ernie,
I don't know what the law is in your country, but in the US it is not only unwise but illegal to us a herbicide that is inconstant with it's labeling. I say this realizing
that labeling in your country may be entirely different than ours.

Chet,
Unless I’m seriously missing something Roundup is labeled for cut stump treatment.  I’m looking at page 49 for 41% Roundup Ultra.  Apply full strength right after cutting the tree.  Also works when ya ring the tree couple of times and apply it to the bottom ring.  Only works during the active growing season.  I was very concerned about it translocating when I first started using it...checked with a forester...he said don't worry...he was right.  Rest of the year we use Toredon.

Larry,
Your are one up on me there. Thats a label I wasn't aware of.    What Tordon product are you using ( RTU ), and what are you using it on?

[redpowerd]

this is funny, was supposed to be getting into certification class today, but had to go with wifey to ultasound her bun in the oven
theres allways next year

[Larry]

Red,
Just straight Round Up...the ultra has surfactant built in.  Not saying that maybe a little diesel might enhance the performance.  Used to use something called WeedOne...did pretty good job but went on the restricted use list and think it is no longer being made??

Chet,
I don’t have a license so bout the only thing I know to legally use is Round Up and RTU Toredon.  Doing TSI and mostly killing out the honey and black locust to favor walnut and oak.  I would guess the right of way clearing guys use something more potent and cheaper.  If ya got a suggestion for something better I’m all ears.

[Roxie]

this is funny, was supposed to be getting into certification class today, but had to go with wifey to ultasound her bun in the oven
theres allways next year

That is GREAT!  When is the redpowerd bun expected to be finished baking?   

[Chet]

Larry,
if you are not certified that really narrows down your list of options. I used to use Tordon RTU for cut stump treatment also, but switched to other products. You have to be very careful using RTU on species such as aspen and poplar that have shared root systems. Treatment of one stump can affect many many trees, some quite a distance away. For that reason I prefer to stay away from it.

[Jeff]

Yep, Noble, we found a good use for beaver kilt Missouri Box elder.

[etat]

I really like Swamp Donkey's idea in preparing the soil.

I really like Asy's idea about auguring down. 


Heck I like and appreciate all the ideas.  I figure the only way I can completely resolve the box-Eder controversy is to plant a couple of them!

My ideas submitted for approval.



I'm gonna use a box blade to knock down the first 8 inches or so and finish it up with that little back hoe.  I'm gonna go down in the bottom below my house and scrape off the dirt and grass down to the sand (lots of it down there) and bring back and stir it in with the soil.  About 6 foot around the perimeter of where the trees are gonna be I'm going to take that post hole digger and dig, auger   as deep as I can making a ring around the tree and mix sand with the dirt before filling back up.  I've got a big pile of gravels I haven't ever spread out so I can put some of em in the bottom of the holes where I'm going to plant the trees.  Also I'll add some top soil with the sand and clay to put around the trees.

Before doing this I'll contact the soil conversation to get their ideas and suggestions, there's one close by in New Albany.  My dad worked for them for a little while back in the 50's before he went into the navy. 

I'm in the process of moving dirt around my yard and house and leveling it up.  I hope to be ready to dig the holes and plant the trees in a matter of a few weeks.  I'll take pictures and document the affair.

And Red Powered, tell us more about the bun!  I'm extremely honored that you first mentioned it on this thread!

[Chet]

CK,
Don't furgit ta treat dem Box Elders with some of dat Roundup growth hormone when ya plant um. 

[etat]

 

Don't worry, I've got 8 gallons of commercial grade Roundup locked up in my shop.  I stocked up on it a few years ago and occasionally spray some of my fence line with it.  (I was afraid it would get to where you couldn't' go buy it without a license).  I've got that and some 2-4-D too though I don't use either one of them very much. 

I do think I understand you're not supposed to fertilize trees for the first year anyways?

[redpowerd]

whats the mode of action with roundup or other glyphosates.??
sure would cut back on all this page flippin ive been doin on these 10 yr old textbooks

is it symplastically translocated only when applied foliar?

[Chet]

whats the mode of action with roundup or other glyphosates.??
sure would cut back on all this page flippin ive been doin on these 10 yr old textbooks

is it symplastically translocated only when applied foliar?

Redpowered,
I think you will find this link very informative. http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/WS/WS-23-W.html

[redpowerd]

it pretty much says it only works in foliar applications. due to no soil activity.
been a while since i heard "source to sink"

thanks for the link, a cleaned up version of some of my books.

[Rockn H]

I agree your county extension office should have some good advice.  Have you considered cotton wood, it grows fast and seems to do well around Cherokee alabama.  I think thats close to you.  Sycamore is another tree that should do well with good site preperation, if you don't mind raking.  Both are also fairly fast growing and have been used alot for hardwood replanting.  Personally, I would have to plant one Tulip, they just look nice to me.

[Furby]

That's a pretty good idea!
If ya have the room CK, plant some fast growing lowgrade trees for shade sooner, and weave some of the better ones in between.
Then when your better trees get a bit bigger, do a little logging.

[asy]

Couple of quick comments:

Redpowered, Congrats on the little red bun, but...  you said "had to go with wifey to ultasound her bun in the oven"...  Um...  Are our congrats misplaced???  Should it not be OUR bun???   

When mixing Roundup, a couple of people have suggested using oil as a surfactant. May I humbly suggest you try dishwashing liquid?  It works just as well, if not better on dry leaves. It foams ever so slightly, and sticks to the leaves. Then, when it rains (or is watered) it simply siaks in and is not a problem. I'd hate to be leaving oil on my soil...   You shouldn't need much of it, either. And it won't affect anything later.

Charles. One thing I did forget to mention. Be VERY careful when you dig a hole with an auger for a plant especially in clay soil...  If you are not careful to 'rough up' the sides you could effectively end up with a clay pot. Then, if the tree does grow, it's roots will be confined to this augered area, and may not spread properly. This makes it a very weak root system and the tree may be prone to falling over. (Generally not a good thing!! )
If you use the auger, use a mattock or shovel or best of all a Crow bar to rough and chip away at the sides of the hole to make it rough so that when the roots get to the edge, they push through rather than spiralling around.

asy

[redpowerd]

london planetree is a better choice than the sycamore because of its resistance to anthracnose.

these trees look great along banks with their spreading habit.
had a long row of these down in cobelskill along a brook and the limbs allmost streched to the other side of the bank. im sure they were pretty old, just as large as some of the oaks around here. we just cant grow them up here.

[etat]

I been busy this weekend planting trees.  Mostly ornamental type.  I dug a big wide hole and mixed gravel, top soil, and potting soil in with the dirt, both under the trees, and around em.  Also I mixed a bit of sand here and there. I did everything I could to prevent the holes from becoming a 'clay pot'  , and to improve the dirt without completely replacing it. Monday my dad is going to get a truck load of mulch for us to put around em. 

Planted so far.

one red dogwood
one white dogwood
one eastern redbud
9 bradford pear trees
2 cleveland pear trees
one flowering cherry tree
one crabapple tree
one weeping willow tree close to the pond
also transplanted some regular willow trees here and there around the pond.


two crepe myrtles
three atheas, different colors
one rose bush tree
one butterfly tree
14 golden euonymus

We also put some more flowers in the flower bed.

I'm pretty sure these are mostly ornamental trees.  I also want to plant some oak, and some fast growing poplar trees around here and there.  It'll probably be this fall before I plant the oak.  I've got my eye on some I want to dig up with the little backhoe.  Later (maybe this fall) I'm going to plant a small orchard with some fruit trees.  We're getting real busy, and it's starting to get late in the year for planting, at least that's what I think.

These all came from a box store and came with a years guarantee that they'd live.  I locked the receipts up and if they don't, I'm gonna take em back and either get my money back, or replacements!

My curiosity is still up about 'Box ELders'.    I'm still looking for some.

[Roxie]

On the first nice day of springtime,
CK did plant for thee
A willow tree close to the pond

On the second nice day of springtime
CK did plant for thee
Two Cleveland Pears
and a willow tree close to the pond

On the third nice day of springtime
CK did plant for thee
Three Atheas
Two Cleveland Pears
and a willow tree close to the pond

(I can't stop myself!)   

[beenthere]

Please don't stop now.
We need to know the rest of the 'story'. 

[estiers]

I thought most commercail formulations of roundup had a surfactant???

CK - be careful with that 2,4-D around the flowers.  The wife might not be happy

[etat]

CK - be careful with that 2,4-D around the flowers

Agreed.  I don' use it much, sometimes on a ditch bank where a creek joins my property, and sometimes on the back fence line.  I'm fully aware the fumes will drift, sometimes a long ways.  Not only will they kill flowers, the fumes will also ruin a lot of things that grows in the gardens.  When spraying, and as I said I don't use it much I ALWAYS keep this in mind.

On the first Day of Springtime Roxie
 gave to me,

A song, about, me planting TREES


Thanks Roxie
, that was pretty cool!!!!!!!! 

[Chet]

Ck,
Keep some of dat Roundup handy just in case dem Willows start growing. If ya catch um early ya just might have a chance of killin' um. 
I think Willow is a hybrid variety of Box Elder.       

[etat]

Cool!  I haven't been able to find any box elder, anyways!

A funny thing about my fish pond.  I got me this light pole out in it.  It weren't my fault.  When I was having the thing dug, for the third time , I knew there was a power pole that was gonna be in he way.  So,..........I called up the ole Tombigbee Power Company and told em their power line was in the way and if they didn't  move it I was a gonna build a fish pond around it.  Several conversations and they concluded that if it wasn't gonna bother me, they wouldn't let it bother them.  So........I had the guy with the track hoe just go ahead and dig around it, leaving me with this little bitty island out in my pond with a power pole growing out of it.  It's kinda off to one side, but still out in the pond.

They said if there was ever a problem with it then they'd move it, I have NO idea how.  I just hope the line doesn't ever come down and cook all my fish in my pond.  I had it stocked a few years ago with 18 hundred catfish and 300 Hybrid brim.

Anyways. a couple of years ago I got tired of just looking at that bare pole so I paddled out there and stuck in some regular willow shoots.  They're doing real nice now and makes that power pole look a lot better.

Oh well, back to the point.  I planted that weeping willow about 20 or 30 foot from the bank of that pond on the west side where I like to fish for them catfish.  It's hot over there and I can use a good shade to fish from. Sometimes I can even grab my pole and sneak out there without Kim even knowing about it.  That pond is just nearly in throwing reach of my front porch but all my water and sewage lines are plumb back away on the other side of the house so I don't expect that'll be a problem.  If the dang thing starts growing too many willow offshoots I'll either chop or mow em down. 

Now.........if I could just find out what a box elder is and where to get em!

[Furby]

If ya REALLY want box elder................
Let me see what I can do, I'm sure I have seeds, but might have a sprout or three that didn't get cut.

[Chet]

If the dang thing starts growing too many willow offshoots I'll either chop or mow em down. 

   

Dat won't work.     Cuttin' Willows is like swatin' skeeters, ya try ta kill one and a million replace it.   

[maple flats]

Ya wana be carefull puttin willows on the island in the pond, when they mature they'll suck out all o the water and you won't have a pond anymore. Exercise extreme caution with willows, and realize that growth hormone is inbread naturally in willows. Once a few years ago I went to a plumbing supply house and went into the back room with the clerk to help identify what I wanted. I saw a block of willow setting on the concrete that had new branches and several leaves on it. I comented on it and the clerk said it had been cut and set there 2 years earlier and both years it sprouted shoots and leaved out. It was not wet there so it must have either had water in it, sucked it from he floor or the air. BE CAREFUL.     you can't kill a willow 

[Furby]

Sure ya can!
It just takes a lot of work!

[etat]

On the backside of that little island the water is 23 feet deep.  All around the edge of the pond the bank drops off rapidly.  Six or eight feet out and you'll already be in up to your neck.  Around the levy you'll be over your head, and swimming. I had it dug that way.  There is one side that I had them step off as it got deeper so I could use it for swimming if I was ever so inclined, but so far I haven't been. I also had it dug with some banks, trenches, and dropoffs on the bottom of the pond.  On one side I buried some great big white oak chunks for the fish to hide around if they wanted to.  On the other end I left part of the old levy for structure to walk out on and fish. 

The first time I had a pond dug there it was a mud hole.

The second pond I had dug there a year later was better, but not exactly still what I wanted.

The third time I cut the levy, let it dry some, and had em bring in a front end loader, a track hoe, a bulldozer, and one of them great big paddle wheel earth movers so they could get enough dirt to build the levy up and build enough slope into it so I could mow it fairly safely with a tractor.  The levy is built in a curve across a holler and is huge. That dang curve cost the heck out of me, almost doubled the price of what it'd have cost if I'd have had em build it straight across. They run that machinery for two solid weeks rebuilding the thing.

It's really not 'that' big, except maybe the levy, but it's deep and I just can't see a couple of trees, of any kind, pulling all that water out of there.

[etat]

I forgot, if the sprouts get out of hand around the edge the best weed control is a herd of goats.  I haven't got goats now but my dad does and I could borrow em if needed.

[maple flats]

If you have enough goats they just might do it. Need to keep them on that island for 2 years to be sure, watch they don't swim off! Willow is a REAL tough kill.

[etat]

I am HAPPY to report, that though I was unable to find any around here.........I am Now..........the happy owner..........of some...........BOX ELDER sprouts.......


THANKS FURBY!!!!!!!!!

 

[Minnesota_boy]

You'll be needing some fertilizer for those box elder sprouts.  I think I have part of a bottle of Roundup that I can send you. 

[etat]

So far EVERY SINGLE tree I planted is still living and doing good! 

but i really need some more explanations about using 'round up' as fertilizer.........

[Furby]

Weeeeeeell CK, ya may wanna consider the "fertilizer" that is being offered.
The only reason I sent that many, is because I figured half would die, if they all make it....................
I am interested in seeing how fast these DanG things grow down there though!

I just read that they advise the removal of the female trees to keep the seeds and box elder bugs to a minimum.



Hmmmmmmmm........
Didn't know this:
There are at least one hundred species of maple in the world. Fourteen of these are indigenous to the United States. In Minnesota, the four species used for producing maple syrup are: sugar maple (hard maple) Acer saccharum; red maple (soft maple) Acer rubrum; silver maple (soft or cutleaf maple) Acer saccharinum; and boxelder (Manitoba maple) Acer negundo.

Most maple syrup is made from sugar maple sap. Sugar maple sap is preferred for making maple syrup because it has an average sugar content of two percent. Because sap from other maple species is usually lower in sugar content, approximately twice as much is needed to yield the same amount of finished syrup. If processed carefully, the resulting syrup from any of the maples described will have good flavor. Ornamental maples, such as the Norway and Schwedler maple, have a milky sap and cannot be used for syrup production.

[beenthere]

I can just see it now....(future FF trip report)..........Tom rides to Mississippi with DanG (FDH is having too much fun in CR playing with snakes) and takes pictures of the substantial over-growth of box-elder trees recently introduced there by some unkown.........but locals say there is some genuine interest coming from the Cudzoo areas of the South, as Box Elder has been found to give off a hormone that is toxic to Cudzoo.........

[SwampDonkey]

One more to the maple list, black maple, grows in southern Ontario and southern Michegan I believe. I don't think I could distinguish it from sugar maple, real close.

Good to here all your trees have made it through the first season CK, that's usually the biggest hurdle. Keep the fertilizer away for a couple years untill the roots get well established.

I have quite a few box elder (locally known as Manitoba maple) seedlings emerging in an old flower bed, one also found it's way behind my mailbox. I find the female trees bare seeds quite young. I got quite a few open spaces in the back yard so I'm glad they sometimes seed in and fill those areas. Much more welcome than weeds and brushy shrubs.   I like them for shade, but ice storms and wind are hard on them if they fork alot. They are one of the first trees in my yard to lose their leaves in fall. I also have some nice yellow birch seedlings I planted 3 years ago that are coming along well and the box elder that intermixes with them will make a nice grove sometime. Also poplar , softwood and sugar maple are seeding in. I have another area, about an acre I need to work with to get trees coming because it's with heavy grass. I have oak that I want to transplant into that area. This stuff sure is alot of work.

[etat]

don't worry SD, i didn't fertilize em, that's one of the first things I found out when studying this.

After I finally got my old tractor rebuilt and back to running I went down in the bottom and found some nice sized little oaks, not too big, and out away from them I dug a trench and cut the roots, back away from the tree a ways.  Later when the weather is cooler I'm going to try to dig up the whole trees, roots and all and move them and see how they do.

Uh  uh uh FURBY?  Now I've got a whole brand new question............

[How do you go about asking them little trees if they are a male or a female

 

[beenthere]

They won't tell you .....        regardless how you ask

[Curlywoods]

Until this thread I never knew box elder was a tree, I always thought it was a noxious weed

Buzz and all,

  Boxelder may be a weed tree, but when it gets the good red color in the trunks, I can sell all I can lay my hands on if it is solid and has no shake.  One man's trash is another man's treasure I guess :-)

[Furby]

Curly, I have a couple smaller blocks cut that have that, they are drying in my basement.

CK, check out this link:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=1128.msg37727#msg37727
 

Actually, just watch for the seeds. The females are the ones with seeds.

[etat]

OK, but I'm gonna be careful if I have to pull em back up.  because I KNOW.......I've had females get mad at me before!

 


I think if they are female trees and I DO have to pull em up, I'm going to sneak up on em first. 

[Chet]

I am HAPPY to report, that though I was unable to find any around here.........I am Now..........the happy owner..........of some...........BOX ELDER sprouts.......


THANKS FURBY!!!!!!!!!

 

Never thought I'd see da day dat someone was happy ta have boxelder sprouts.      

[SwampDonkey]

I protest!!  Some of us like to grow fast developing shade trees. We're not always thinking of saw stock with pink heart for the elusive specialty markets.  

 

[etat]

Yaaaaaaaa.   Tell em SD.  

Yes sir re George (i heard that Bob is on vacation), that we elusively, I mean especially want is to grow fast developing shade trees.

Now, who's got the best idear on how to go about sneaking up on them females so a person won't get whopped while he is pulling them up?   

[GareyD]

I'm not sure that sneakin' is as important as watchin' where and how ya grab 'em

[Furby]

Haven't figured that one out yet CK, meaning........you may not have any females there.

[Woodcarver]

I wonder if Roundup kills boxeldr bugs.