Does anyone really make a living doing custom sawing??

[woodchopper]

I have snooping around here and other places for a few days/weeks and had to pose the question.  It seems that many or maybe most of the people that are on here have their own woodlot or even forested land... They buy and sell logs and sawn lumber.  We all talk about problems and how to solve them.  But what I have not seen or heard from anyone is whether or not they make a good living doing custom sawing!  I know that the people from TimberKing and Wood-Mizer and D&L and 30 others will tell you how much you can cut and how cheap it is to run their saws.  One can sit with a calculator and see that if he cuts a half million board feet every 12 months he is in high cotton ( old Texas term there)... But, what I am asking is:  If a man devotes 8-9-10 hours a day to this  -  just as he would were he working for AT&T or Mack Trucks or Joe's Bar and Grill and Airplane factory-- does his networking, does his advertising, gives the customer more than he asks for -  What are the chances he will make a good living?   I honestly value your opinions.....

[Firewood Farm]

There are lots of variables involved, but maybe this will help. I live in a rural area where most farmers have some timber land. They also have a many uses for that wood. Also, this is an Amish area with a lot of woodworking and craft  shops.

I know of two guys who run their mills full time and both have more work than they can handle. I have no way of knowing how that translates into annual income, but I assume they are doing OK or they would be doing something else. Both have been at it for many years. One has a wholesale/retail mill, the other has a portable mill and does all on-site sawing. To my knowledge, both operate solely on word-of-mouth advertising.

There are also a number of guys in this area that have hobby mills, but the two I mentioned are the only ones that are full-time (that I know). I do not know of anyone who tried to saw full-time and gave it up because they could not make it.

But again, that just how things are here in my little corner of the world.

Joe

[woodchopper]

Joe,

Thanks for the input..... greatly appreciated....

[Brad_S.]

It depends on what the meaning of is good is.

My sole source of income is milling, mostly custom cutting others wood at their site. Pay is nothing like my old corporate job, many days I'd do better flipping burgers, hours are long, machinery repairs will be the death of me. But on those warm spring days or crisp fall mornings, and on those days when everything is working well, there's nothing like it.

It would help to have a wife with a real job and benefits, but I don't have that luxury.

[Randy]

The Man I bought my mill from is a friend also. He custom sawed for 18 years, (He retired)-------He made a Good living, but didn't get rich. All he did was Saw------never bought a Tree----Never sold a board. He stayed backed up. His last year, he did a little over $50,000--Had alot of 6 day weeks-------Around here-that is real good money. I only bought my mill to "Play with" part-time work. My best week so far was $900-------About $50 for gas, but that was 3 1/2 days-------better than sitting at the house. If I had of hired help--------then my profit goes WAAAAAAAAY Down . Its Really hard work if you work by yourself----off loading boards 6 days a week. My friend always worked by himself(he has arms that looks like a Big Body Builder !! Randy

[Kelvin]

The only guy i've seen having made a living with a sawmill was living in a trailer home and bascially made due with older equipment.  He put his business before everything else.  I've heard you may work the first 5 years before you start making money, and the money after all expenses may be on the order of $15/hr.  You could easily make more being a trim carpenter or starting a asphalt roofing company.  There are definitely easier ways to make money. 

The guys who have a better chance have inherited a lot in advance, be it mill experience and an operating mill with timber land paid for and a home, but for a guy to go into making lumber from scratch only using his limited capital, learning every aspect from scratch marketing, milling, manufacturing, mechanicing, working, going without, all for the chance to be their own boss, its sometimes a steep price.  but some of us, myself included, are unemployable due to being self employed my whole life.  I couldn't listen to anyone who i didn't respect as having more brains than me, and let me go on vacation anytime i liked, and didn't expect me to be on time everyday.

I would warn anybody against it.  Its gritty hard work, but if for some reason they got suckered by all the pictures the manufactures put out of their mills sitting next to piles of cash, like i did, then you can learn how it really works.  It would be a shorter course than getting a bachelors degree, and you wouldn't have thrown all your money away as quickly.  You could always sell your equipment, you can't sell a degree your not interested in anymore.  You should do a search on this site, this question comes up quite often, once by me a few years ago.
 
I think guys get sucked into the neat tools thing.  They get to buy a tractor, a mill, a truck to pull it with, a lot of chainsaws, trailers, barns, kilns, equipment to break it down with , then start dreaming of streamlining things with grapple loaders, forwarding trailers, retail outlets.  It really just may be an addiction, a continuation of a overly consuming society.  Same thing with guys and their woodshops.  They buy $10k worth of tools to make a lamp their wife isn't sure she wants the company to even see.
 
One big thing i wish i had thought about was what it takes to beat the monkey.  You see i have $100k in equipment for my portable mill company.  My first 2 years i made about $15k, (1/2 not with the mill but other odd things.)  Well i thought, "not bad" till i figured what that $100k would have made in a reasonably safe account somewhere.  5%?  So deduct the depreciation of the equipment as it sits around my farm, deduct the interest i did not earn on that money had i left it alone, or the interest i had to pay to borrow the money, and i made 0$ for working 5 days a week with 4 weeks off a year.  It can be rough to look at the bottom line.  To be self employed you need to make a ton of money to match what you could make at some company.  I have a secondary educ. degree which would be making me $40k a year with 3 months off right now.  To match that kind of income with my mill i would have to make enough to pay my health insurance, retirement, self employment taxes and all extra expenses of the business, or about $100k if you don't have any employees (this might be exagerated) employees are a whole new ball of wax.  I know of a lot of small businesses and the owners all claim their employees take home more than them, and have none of the worries.

You need a couple things in your corner to make it.  Are you an excellent salesman, preferable in the wood fiber markets with lots of old cronies?  Do you have timber of exceptional quality?  Do you have a cost free life with no debts?  Do you have a spouse that will support you entirely?  Do you have a lumber dealing career backgound?  Mill background?  Mechanical background?  Money background?  All the equipment from some other profession like excavating or arborist?

THere is money in milling wood, no doubt, but most of the guys i question here work very hard for that money, and its not very big.  There are niches, but they dry up. (fugured maple cue sticks to china)  The work, like any work can be enjoyable, but the excitement wears off and its repetitive if your are successful, and hard on the body.  Will you make enough to retire early enough to save your back, legs, and lungs?

THere are lots of machines that offer money to the investor.  Tree spades, black topping, stump grinders, airless paint sprayers, Foley-Belsaw sharpening systems, Woodmaster multiplaner, Logosol molding machine.  We all get lots of advertisements telling us how much more money we will be making with them.  Freeing us from our current economic hardships and servitude.  Each is connected to a career possiblity, all have the point of trying to make a living and each has a group of manufacturers trying to convince you that if you buy this or that piece of equipment you will make lots of $$$.  I think the real money in sawmills might be in making sawmills, or blades for them for that matter.

I'm having a heck of a time paying all the debts, selling lumber, custom sawing, and making enough money to have a savings, let alone contribute to the household income.
Long post hope its got some points,
Good luck.
KP

[Part_Timer]

     We have 3 full time mills in our area.  One of them is run by the Amish and they are only charging .14bf.  There are 4 mills including mine running part time within 40 miles of the house.   Not much wood gets wasted around here.  I'm not sure I'd want to run mine full time.  It might just come to close to being like  a job.

[iain]

This country aint quite as big as your's, i know of 6 mill's only sawing for a living, two booked into 2006, i can do so if i wish, but it would drive me mad, not to use all the skills i've built up



        iain

[Bibbyman]

We make one good living custom sawing.   Mary works at it pretty much full time and I still have my “day job”.  

We’ve got several month’s worth of logs to saw and more coming in each day.   There has not been a slow period in years – not even in the middle of winter.   We saw almost every day - weekend, holadays included.  Have a good many $400 days and some days it don’t pay to get out of bed.

About half our business is custom sawing.  The rest is sawing grade, farm, and blocking from logs we buy.   Our mill is set up stationary (LT40HDE25 with Accuset and Command Control)

The big hold up of me quitting my day job is the insurance and benefits that being self-employed would cost.

[Daren]

I can not speak with experience in the sawmill business, just in self owned business in general. I had a "good" job as a union plumber making $60k+ when by the time I was 25. Before I could get an apprenticeship I worked other jobs for peanuts and didn't like them because I thought I was not making enough money. After about 15 years of a "good" job, I didn't like it either. I decided to start my own business, it has went through many incarnations. A plumbing shop, welding shop, painting contractor, handyman service... I have worked alone and had several working for me. Every year it is the same, working twice as hard for 1/2 the money as my "good" job. I wouldn't ever go back to work for someone else. I am fortunate, I have a very supportive wife with a good job and no other mouths to feed, so the money is not my motivator. I enjoy going to work every day, you can't buy that. I am thinking about getting into sawing more and turning down jobs I am not going to enjoy as much as sawing. If I am not going to make big money ( I have skills, and have tried a little of everything) I might as well make little money and feel happy about the work I do. I had a bunch of money once, but I still ate bologna and wore flannel shirts.I guess making a good living is how you look at it, if you are happy most days that is living good.

[Kirk_Allen]

I cut partime and have no plans on quiting my day job but not because I couldnt make it sawing.  I am confident that I could make a fair living sawing full time but as Bibby mentioned, things that come with my full time business I cant just walk away from.

I guess a lot has to do with what "good" means, as others have mentioned.  Last year I was able to net just shy of 15K after expenses.  I was pretty excited about that since I only do this part time. and mostly on weekends.  I turn more work away than I like but I simply dont have time to cut the volume of wood that needs cutting around here.  I have two last cutting jobs in the suburbs I promised I would do.  I though living in the country my business would suffer since there is not much of a city to draw custom cutting jobs from.  WRONG!  Folks in the country appreciate a good sawyer and better yet, they understand the use of there timber!    

[spencerhenry]

the general premise of the question suggest a cynical view of wether a "living" can be made sawing full time. one obvious fact is that the vast majority of mom and pop sawmills have gone under just like the family farm. i own a $35,000 woodmizer, a skidder, a forklift, a log splitter. all the equipment is used for sawing. the forklift was purchased for my framing business, but is used for both. total amount of money invested in machinery just for wood products is about $50,000. in the last 3 years i have grossed about $60,000 on wood products. but about $20,000 was firewood. i only mill part time, but for my time i can make alot more money doing other things. sawing is satisfying ...most of the time. could i make a living at it. yes, but my standard of living would be far lower than many other things. my framing business is what paid for all the equipment. since then, the machines have probably about paid for themselves, not including my  time. i estimate that the best i could do sawing full time is about $60,000/ year. but i would have to work alot harder than i do at framing, and while framing i make about twice that. i think alot of people who mill full time, are just hobbyists without a day job.
 i think woodmizer is a good company, and they build a good product, but i dont believe their mill output numbers, and around here a laborer gets $10/ hour. paid legally thats $15. that cost throws their number way out of whack.
 it is a hobby for me, but one that makes me money.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Running a mill.(mines circular)...is EXACTLY like any other business I have done.
The only difference id that I LOVE sawmilling.
How sucessful, how much doe you make is directly proprtional to how dedicated you are to seeing it prosper.
I have seen quite a few people, with no marketing skills, no salesmanship and little self motivation, buy into a business an , then when nothing happens, wonder, WHY CANT I MAKE IT?
Everyone else is, .
What they bought...with thier mill or business franchise, was a DREAM.
REALLY sucessful salsemen get rich selling the DREAM of a better life, money independance..............
It is possible to do as much with ANY business as you can imagine..........
TROUBLE is it is ALL up tyo you .

[raycon]

 From what I've seen in the few years I've been paying attention to portable millling is very few local mill owners are using there equipment as a source of income.  I know of two bandmill owners locally that look to make $$ for living off there mills.  One has a kiln and a four sided moulder sells timber frame  kits and happens to be a retired architect.  The other owns a working  farm and dabbles in everything also has a moulder. The circle mill owners(locally) don't fall into that category -- there  always spitting out lumber. What I noticed with the circle mills is that as the key people leave (usually via old age) the mill often shuts down.  Don't know if its a hobby for the mill owners or theres no one that wants the job/business waiting in the wings.

 My thoughts are the more local mills the better helps create a market place for rough sawn lumber etc.  Most people I speak to are not aware of how easy it is to get  native lumber either there own trees sawn or buying from a local mill.  Or how inexpensive it can be. A bad bandmiller/sawyer with a bad reputation can hurt  the whole area.

  What I've noticed is tree service companies that are on top of things do real well.  Log haulers do well working for the land clearers and tree service folks when they keep the logs and process them into firewood etc. 

  I don't think I could make my day job salary milling solo.  If I were to attempt it I'd make sure I understood the local market place real well and a had a few years of milling part time for $$ under my belt.  Right now I just mill locally this year I'll mill 20 - 30 mbf  figure and will be in the red after I factor in all my expenses.  If I hit 50mbf I might bank a few $$ don't expect to be close unless I quit my day job.
 

[Rod]

I live in West Virginia were just about everyone and their brother are into timber or coal and I don't know 1 person who is making a living running a small mill.

[UrbanLogger]

When I bought my mill, I didn't intend to make a living with it. I only wanted to have wood for my custom woodworking which I do make a decent living at. 

Having my own mill has taken my woodworking to another level in terms of quality of material and, needless to say, dramatically reduced my raw material costs. This, in itself, has paid for my mill and contributed to greatly increased returns on my woodworking. 

Lumber sales is not a big component of my business, but when someone comes by unexpectedly and driops a couple hundred dollars for a couple sticks of wood, it's nice. 

Custom sawing is also a nice income on a seasonal basis, especially those jobs that are big enough to keep the mill busy for a few days or a week at a stretch and net $2000 or more for a week's work. But alas, these jobs are few and far between. The majority of custom sawing tends to be a few logs--only a couple hours of billable time but a whole day of take down (at the shop), travel and resetting (back at the shop).   

As others have eluded, value-adding or vertical integration are the keys to profit with a small sawmill operation. My best jobs are those that I saw out the rough lumber, mill the moulding/flooring, build the cabinets and contract the installation. 

Also, as others have said, it is extremely helpful to have a low-cost lifestyle and/or have a spouse with regualr income. My wife is a midwife--no worries about job security there. We have no debt to service beyond our home mortgage ($500/month) and my shop note ($200/month) and we eat whole foods and are perfectly happy with thrift store clothing 

We call our lifestyle "voluntary simplicity". If we need something, I build it. If something's broken, I fix it. My wife cooks our meals from whole foods bought in bulk from coops. We trade for services. Since we don't drive somewhere to get the things we "need" almost all our mileage is business related and the costs of our vehicles are largely deducted. 

I guess what I'm saying is that "making a living" is subjective and largely a matter of creativity. Frugality is also helpful--the fella I bought my shop from made pallets and complained that he couldn't make enough profit. I inherited his records and while throwing them away, I noticed that he paid someone else for almost all of his maintenance and repairs--I'd go broke quick if I couldn't weld, machine, rebuild and service all of my equipment and vehicles myself.

I often get calls/emails asking me what my "secret to success" is in terms of sawing and, like Kelvin, I am extremely frank with every one of these inquirers. I tell them to throw away all those glossy brochures that the sawmill, moulder and kiln companies have sent them and go spend several weeks observing or working the machines instead. Then go visit the homes of those that are working them for a living and see if their lifestyle is for you.                 

[woodbowl]

Woodchopper,  I guess you figured out by now that sawing wood for a living is for people who love to work hard. It's really not about the money when you get down to the bare bones. However, the passion is so deep and the desire is so great to "make it" doing what one loves that the facts are ignored for this trial run. There are those that make a very good living doing this, but they have paid their dues and got their education from years of succeses and failures. But now we're back to the "it depends what you consider good is". After 10 years of sawing, I have received my education! I now have the smarts to determine that I need to learn much, much, much more to make some big money. So....... you know, it's in your heart, you are your own boss (sort of) and you don't work for Walmart! For me the choice is clear, I am who I am and am driven from within to feed my passion. My goal is not to be rich, but to be happy and hopefully have a little jingle in time. If I could say only one thing in advise, I would say it with a question. Who are you?

[chevymetal]

Yes.

It's hard work, but it's great to be outdoors cutting lumber!  And you better know how to fix something and have spare parts to fix it. 
Word of mouth advertising has got me currently booked out for 3 months but usually it's more around a month.
This is not the job for getting rich, but if your smart about what jobs you take and how much you charge (given there's people who want their wood cut) you can make a nice living.  40k-60k is reasonable.
It supports me an my family!

[Cedarman]

I started part time custom sawing in 1984 with a manual WM and small gas engine.  I had a custom hay baling business and raised cattle. I had worked in the oil well service industry for 7 years and had laid a good bit of cash back. I switched wholly to a niche industry in 1992, cedar sawing.  We had a company that would buy all that we could saw. So sales were guaranteed. I invested and borrowed. We have never lived high on the hog.  All of my money and time was reinvested into the business.  I eat, drink, sleep and work cedar 24/7.  I do take 3 or 4 weeks a year away from the business though.  In 1998, we opened a mill in Al for my son to run. Last year we opened up a grinding operation in Ok and moved my son there and let his partner run the Al mill.  I am about 1,000,000 in debt.  But that is for buildings and equipment. The scragg mill for Al alone was 125,000. We have 18 total employees. My net worth is where all my money is.

Value added by planing and moulding is our most profitable. Services yield higher profit than the actual wood itself.

I would not trade this business for anything in the world.  I hope to ease out in a few years and let my sons take over.  (Second son will be ready in a few years)

Everything said above by others is true.

Educating your self for the business will be the most important thing you can do.  You must know your local markets.
You will balance 3 things,  1) raw material or custom jobs, 2) equipment and knowledge to process the material 3) markets for material. (not needed for custom sawing)  
You must be efficient and keep working toward efficiency.
Read trade mags and study.  Maybe work for another mill owner.

Most important, you must love what you do.  Not necessarily everyday, but most days.

[rebocardo]

My custom sawing is mostly for my own use.

I only have a small chain mill and to me its all bonus$. I cut the trees down for urban tree removal and instead of bringing the wood to the dump like most people, it gets turned into firewood and lumber. I find that much more to my satisfaction.

My first piece of solid oak (most pieces clean on 4 sides) furniture, a couch made of 'real" 2x6 -> 2x14, sits in my living room for use and enjoyment. I doubt I could have bought wood this nice since those 300+ year old defect free trees are hard to find :-D

I think the real profit is turning the lumber into furniture, pricing your work at fair market value (what the market will bear) and keep all the profit a middle man would have made selling you the wood. You can not compete against mass produced stuff from South America brought into the country by shiploads held together with glue. You can compete on selling your crafts and skill as local wood and local labor.

Once I have built up enough of a kitty to buy a $10,000+ mill I will let you know how profitable it is for making a living doing custom sawing. But, I plan on using it for mostly my own products where profit is the highest, not running a 1,000,000 BFT mill. I want it to leave as finished product (chairs, tables, mouldings, etc.).