Author Topic: Have I stuffed it? (Read 2170 times)

sigidi · « **on:** March 30, 2005, 07:02:11 am »

I was doin a bit of sawing with my 372 and used up the last of my bar oil, with just one more cut to make - about 16" in dia.

So I filled the oil tank with my two stoke oil and did the cut, figuring there is always bar oil left when the fuel runs out so it would be a mixture.

Well anyway the cut was a massacre of epic proportions and I ended up using the tank of fuel.

Now my bar has some bluing of the metal, have I buggerd it up?

jjmk98k · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2005, 08:15:55 am »

hum.... naughty naughty naughty.....

At least you ran some sort of lubricant through it, I am sure our resident expert

JOKERS

Will have some input on this matter.

DanG · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:18:25 am »

I've been known to use motor oil when I run out of the proper concoction. I'm sure it probably caused some extra wear, but I never noticed any immediate reaction.

fishhuntcutwood · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:22:46 am »

If you didn't warp or crack anything it should still be useable. How hot did your chain get? If you got either the chain or bar hot enough you may have affected the temper of it, and your chain could be a candidate for failure sooner than expected, and that could hurt. Just a thought.

Take care all,
Jeff

Doc · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2005, 04:02:38 pm »

Quote from: sigidi on March 30, 2005, 07:02:11 am

Now my bar has some bluing of the metal, have I buggerd it up?

I am no timber guy for sure, but I do know metals. You blued the bar, which means you got it hot enough to alter the temper, and I can tell you that ain't good. Blue is usually an indicator of softening or making a spring out of it. I woudl at minimum replace the chain and trash the old chain. if you got the bar that hot you for sure got the chain alot hotter. Check the sprockets in that bar, and make sure they are not deformed or running out of true.

Doc

fishhuntcutwood · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2005, 05:38:55 pm »

Thanks Doc, I'm not a super knowledgable metal guy, but I figured his chain was at least shot.

Jeff

Doc · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2005, 06:12:03 pm »

I woudl be wary of that bar too if it turned blue.

Those bars are hardened to make them rigid. They are tempered to a degree to keep them from being brittle. There are stages of tempering that will remove alot of the brittle without making the material so soft it is springy. Blue is the spring temper stage,a nd I woudl pay really close attention to that bar.

If you put a new chain on it, and go to use it, and sense an abnormal amount of vibration either before you touch wood or while cutting ditch the bar and save yourself alot of agony. I don't like hearing about folks getting hurt.

I fnothing else you learned a relatively (depends on how you look at it) lesson. Two stroke oil is not very thick to start with. Chain oil that I have seen is more comparable to molasses, and that thick for a reason.

Doc

mshillbilly · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2005, 01:39:09 am »

pretty much,

if its not possible to get bar oil I have run 30wt motor oil, but I don't like to. blueing on the bar is a sign of over heating . probly will need a chain too.

sigidi · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2005, 04:19:14 am »

Took some pics of the bar and I'm thinking, now I've seen the pics, it may have been a lesson I've learned with my wallet

fishhuntcutwood · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2005, 05:07:21 am »

Quote from: sigidi on March 31, 2005, 04:19:14 am

Took some pics of the bar and I'm thinking, now I've seen the pics, it may have been a lesson I've learned with my wallet

At least you didn't learn it with your leg! Good thing you caught it when you did, and thought to ask before using a weakened bar/chain again. Some guys keep on going with a blue bar. Good for you for stepping up.

Take care all,
Jeff

jjmk98k · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2005, 09:35:00 am »

I would have to agree with what Jeff said, better man will admit his mistakes while a fool thinks he never makes any....

Doc · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2005, 09:36:39 am »

Garbage bar. hillbilly said it right......at least you didn't learn with your leg!

Doc

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2005, 10:23:10 am »

Could you guys x-plain how the heated bar is gonna cut off this blokes leg........Are you saying it will break...or the friction is gonna do sumpthin?
I think most 2 stroke oil is 30 weight oil??? And All early chainsaws used that for bar oil, also they didnt have tempered bars at all.
Is that good, not necissarily , but I have a bunch of these old saws and I still put 30 weight in the oiler...they run out fine..........I have read that the weight oil rating on bar oil is not the difference in that stuff, but rather , ANTI SLING properties that help keep it on the bar where it belongs.
Now, I am not saying it is good what happened to this bar and chain, but, I am saying that I am not completely sure it is definitely beyond use or safe handling solely do to a heating.
I have seen LOTS of dinged bars, heated bars and bent bars....( tree service employees , logging and my own troubles).
I gather that you guys are saying...ANY sign of heating on a bar then get a new bar and chain. Better safe than sorry?
I have seen a few chains break, never seen a bar fail...just wear out.
I have seen such heating do to too tight a chain sometimes, and also a clogged oiler...I would look at the latter. The 30 weight SHOULD have keept it lubed in the cut

fishhuntcutwood · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2005, 11:09:19 am »

Quote from: Buzz-sawyer on March 31, 2005, 10:23:10 am

Could you guys x-plain how the heated bar is gonna cut off this blokes leg.......

I wouldn't say the bar in and of itself is going to cut his leg off, but rather as it's lost it's tempber and rigidity, it could be more prone to excessive vibe, and be more likely to jump out of a cut at the start of it, run down the wood at full throttle before he can stop it, and find a foot or calf. Or the the chain could be more likely to fail as he's making a cut with the top of his bar, and as it breaks in the wood, the bottom half of the chain is left to come back his way and use his leg as a chain catcher. His pictures show it to be a solid nose bar, but in a replaceable nose bar, all the heating and cooling could wreak havoc on it's fit, and a loose tip could throw a chain, or be a mess in plunge cut or something of that nature. I wouldn't look for the bar itself to break and do any harm. I know there's been alot of run out, blued bars that see many, many more years of safe and useful life, but in the same way that I'd change something as simple as a broken handlebar because it would make my saw anything less than perfectly stable in my hand and less safe, I'd chage this bar and chain. It's simple insurance.

Just my opinion.

Jeff

mshillbilly · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2005, 02:30:40 pm »

I have had a spocket blowup chain wedged itself where it was suppose to be. I've burn't bars when oilers stoped. Bar may be fine, but we are't talking major mony to replace it. I have a spare bar and at least two sharp chains for each saw i use, there is nothing more aggravating than to cut with chain or bar problems . I think I 'd rather stay home and play with mama or watch cmt.

sigidi · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2005, 04:51:30 pm »

Hey fella's thanks for the info so far, the bar does have a replaceable tip although the pic doesn't show it.

How much are we looking at for a new tip? I spose it will be all different over here anyways

fishhuntcutwood · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:48:29 pm »

New tip oughtta be less than $12 or $15 U.S. Check Bailey's.

Jeff

rebocardo · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2005, 02:28:38 pm »

Bailey's is having a sale on bars, fwiw.

A while ago when I first started I blued a bar and burnt almost all the paint off when I was caught between a rock and a hard place. The oiler failed on my Husky 365 and I -had- to finish the cut in the tree and not leave it hanging. Mine looked a lot worse then yours.

From my experience the bar will wear faster and develop a groove from the chain. I just finished using a bar sharpener I bought from Bailey's to smooth out the blued 28" bar. I think a bar rail closer might help too. I use the blued one as a back up and for my chain saw mill. I bought a new bar for everyday use.

With everyone saying to junk the chain, I agree. I kept mine (two 28" chains) and use them for stump removal where I might hit rocks because it will not hold an edge for more then ten minutes or three or four big 28" cuts before it goes dull. Forget trying to use it for a face cut. It starts out sharp enough to draw blood at the corner of the cutter with a fine edge and dulls quickly with use.

I would buy a new bar and chain, keep the blued bar for back up, and junk the chain. Or keep the chain for a back up bar/chain. It is not worth it using a comprised bar and chain around your legs and waist all day even with safety equipment. For me it was a $100 experience

Clean under the clutch cover and around the clutch. When the bar gets that hot it burns the sap and saw dust to anything it is attached and might form a hard film around the clutch band. It did on my saw.

I have had no discernable problems using motor oil when I had to, including slightly used oil. Though I can see where oil mix would be too thin since it is like water.

sawguy21 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 03, 2005, 10:25:58 am »

In the early days, 30W was used as buzz says but that was with hard tip bars and loose chains by todays standards. The chain was moving at half the speed too. I have found that a blued bar will wear more quickly which means more work keeping the chain properly tensioned. You should see some of the bars that come into our shop on homeowner saws.

StihlDoc · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2005, 12:12:38 pm »

Gentlemen, there is nothing wrong with the bar. If you were to remove all the paint from the bar you would find that the rails are blue all around the bar. This is because the bar rails are induction hardened (an electric heat treating process) in the manufacturing process.

leweee · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2005, 12:39:05 pm »

Quote from: StihlDoc on April 06, 2005, 12:12:38 pm

Gentlemen, there is nothing wrong with the bar. If you were to remove all the paint from the bar you would find that the rails are blue all around the bar. This is because the bar rails are induction hardened (an electric heat treating process) in the manufacturing process.

I always wondered why Stihl painted those cheap laminated bars

bitternut · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2005, 12:42:10 pm »

If it were my saw I would take the bar off, clean the groove, and file any burrs off the edge of the bar. Then I would put the bar and chain back on with the bar flipped over. Next I would tighten the chain up good and tight, get out my file and sharpen chain. Readjust the chain for proper tension, fill the saw with gas and bar oil. Then I would start the saw and check that the oiler was working properly by running the saw at medium high speed close to a piece of cardboard or some other surface that would show up whether oil was being flung from the spinning chain. If no oil or not enough I would stop and address the oiler issue. If plenty of oil getting to the chain and bar I would use saw as is. You may need to adjust the chain tension a couple of times sooner than normal but it will settle down to normal shortly. If you did soften the bar rail I doubt that you affected it very deeply.

Well...........thats what I would do.

sigidi · « **Reply #22 on:** April 08, 2005, 09:30:09 am »

Well then Doc, keep business as usual??

Bitternut, I do try to make sure I am getting oil on the bar each time I start up, by holding it near the log 'til the oil flicks off going at about half speed or the fast idle setting.

Well I am off to get a new chain anyways as I was sharpening and got down to the metal around the rivets so I guess I have gone far enough on this chain.

Even though the pics don't show too much used up on the teeth, I am only a newb and haven't finished perfecting my sharpening yet so I have obviously been a bit wayward in something to have gotten to the rivets with so much cutter left, is that about right?

StihlDoc · « **Reply #23 on:** April 08, 2005, 08:27:41 pm »

Just file off any burrs that may have formed on the sides of the bar rails and you are good to go. Also, check that the rails are even. You can dress up the rails on any disc or belt sander that has a table that allows you to place the bar perpindicular to the sanding surface. Your pictures show plenty of material around the rivets. Unless you have filed deeply into the tie straps, you can probably get the chain brought back into acceptable condition. If the pictures are not accurate, suggest you get a new chain if you have filed into the rivet area. Get yourself a file guide. This will keep you from forcing the file too deep into the gullet. Make sure you are using the correct diameter of file. Your photos look like you are using 3/8" pitch chain. If so, you should be using a 13/64" file (or the metric equivalent).

rahtreelimbs · « **Reply #24 on:** April 08, 2005, 09:31:13 pm »

If you have that much worry about the bar, get a new one. For what they cost and this experience you learned from you are better off.

I always have a new backup bar for every chain/bar combo that I have.

Gypo Logger · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2005, 07:15:54 am »

I find it hard to believe that by simply using a thinner bar lube and making a single cut would do the damage that has been spoken of. The only way to generate that much heat is to ride the saw with a dull chain. There would have to be other contributing factors other than simply the choice of bar lube, but then again, I wasn't there and anything can happen given the correct circumstances.
John
(Click link above for picture, Large file)

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Author Topic: Have I stuffed it? (Read 2170 times)