Farm Forestry (sub Tropical)

[Andy Mack]

Hiyas

I'm investigating for myself the business of Forest farming.  I toured several small, private, mixed species plantations in our area (sub tropical) last Sunday, and I am on another tour this Saturday inspecting plantations in an adjacent district.

The concept is to grow high dollar cabinet timbers (rain forest trees) some of which are fast growers to provide early returns while other higher dollar tree provide returns over the longer term.  The first commercial thinning comes in at 8 to 12 years while others are cropped from 15 years to 40 years.

The idea is to establish a rain forest that is self regenerating so it will provide income from about 10 years and every 5 years there after, hopefully providing a nice retirement fund, and if the next generation manage it right, it'll be there forever.

That is the theory.  As I have no background in farming, trees, machinery, I am treading carefully and trying to use common sense to sort the facts from the BS.

I will try to add more to the thread and throw some photos in

 

Andrew

[Arthur]

If you have the space may I recommend a small plantation of Balsa or similar tree.  These are fast growing and regrow from the stump.

I would only have 5% to 10% of the total plantation area but on a sustainable forest farm these trees will give you a FULL harvest in 8 to 10 years and additional full harvests every 4 to 5 years.

Easy to mill and always in demand.

The hardwood is just the cream on the top.

arthur

[Andy Mack]

Digging holes for planting.  It is not a normal Auger / post hole implement, they describe it more as tilling the hole.  They don't want a clean hole that a post hole digger does, actually want to rip it up.

               

(btw - first go at posting a photo)

[Andy Mack]

Arthur: 

Not surprising, I know nothing about Balsa (except we made model planes from it ).  Do you know the requirements for growing Balsa, soil type?, Climate ? , Rainfall ? 

What is the market for Balsa ?

Paulonia trees are also pushed as a cash crop but they require a lot more looking after.  I'm also very unsure of the market for Paulownia.

[Andy Mack]

 Normally an annual rainfall of about 60 inches is desired.  This planting is about 20 months old but they have endured a rather dry winter last year.  This district typically is only a 40 inch rainfall area. 

Notice the bare looking ground under the trees, they spray with glyphosate  to keep weeds under control.  The ground was never tilled, but deliberately grassed, then killed off to use as a mulch layer.  Its almost gone in this case but on close inspection the grass roots and remnants  are still there.  Hopefully another season should see some canopy establishing, pruning and leaf dropping will start to provide a compost layer.


   

[Andy Mack]

This is a 3.4 year old planting.  Is in a 60 inch rain fall area, but the last 2 years were well under   average. 

notice how the compost is forming on the ground and the canopy is establishing.  Very little weed control is required now.

                                 


Andrew

[OneWithWood]

Andrew, your plan makes a lot of sense to me.  I started out with similar goals and much to learn 25 years ago.  We have had some successful harvests and are now looking to process the lumber from tree to final form, on a limited basis.  The journey has been fun and enlightening.  I learn more everyday
You meet the nicest people in the wood business 

[sawmillsi]

G'day Andrew,

Where in QLD are u?

You should contact the school of forestry at Southern Cross University in Lismore (northern NSW) on 02 6620 3000 - they have should be able to give you some contact details on the sub-tropic farm forestry going on around northern nsw (theres a lot) and their own plots.

They should also be able to give you the contact details for the sub-tropic farm forestry association in Nth NSW.

Simon

[Bro. Noble]

Andrew,

Like OWW,  we have been enjoying a plantation for several years.  It is just now starting to pay off.  Your pictures look kinda like ours ------on fast forward   Keep the pictures coming

[Andy Mack]

Thanks for the Encouragment guys   

Simon:
 
 We are currently in Brisbane, but soon will be Sunshine Coast.  The tour I'm doing tomorrow is starting from the Southern Cross University, though organised by the Qld DPI.  Thanks for the heads up on the Southern Cross Uni as I will make further enquires.  I would love to invest in a sizable property in your area (northern NSW / good rainfall )  with a view to farm forestry.

One with Wood, Bro. Noble :

I would love to hear more specifics about your experiences and returns   

[Bro. Noble]

Andrew,

I'm sending you an Instant Message

On page 3 of this forum I started a thread "made a deal"  where I describe our thinning procedure.

[Arthur]

[quote author=L-plate link=topic=11059.msg152099#msg152099
What is the market for Balsa ?

Paulonia trees are also pushed as a cash crop but they require a lot more looking after. I'm also very unsure of the market for Paulownia.

Both have markets in surfboards and boat building.  I milled a plantation last year near Taylors Arms and most of it went for boat building.  10% went for surfboard manufactures up in the gold coast and some wnt for tables.

Both look like ceder when coloured.

If you get down to Coffs Harbour I can show you all sorts.

arthur

[OneWithWood]

Andrew,

Check out this thread

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=1400.0

It will give you a glimplse of what I have been trying to accomplish in the last couple of years.  Progress has been slow do to other projects taking precedence. 

Good luck with your adventures and be sure to keep us informed of your progress.

[Andy Mack]

Hi Guys,

Back from our tour of farm forests around Lismore.  I'm still on a very steep learning curve but it's all fun.  Unfortunately I haven't seen a more mature forest that has been well managed for commercial return, lots of them were done for a combination of rehabilitate with a commercial aspect to it or they have been experimenting with different ideas.

Having said that, I saw some good trees !

                 


This is a 12 year old mixed species planting.  This plantation is not a bad example but as its owner is a busy man, some jobs haven't been done.  Form pruning is important to ensure the quality (but not too bad).  The plantation is desperate for thinning, it was a close planting to start with and needed to be thinned a couple of years ago. 

[Andy Mack]

A recent Blue Quandong (12yo) has been thinned.

                                 


Since the local PHD student cut this tree down, he advised the owner to leave the log in the forrest to provide additional mulch.  I dunno about this, it's at least 30cm x an easy 6metre (12inch x 20feet) of quality timber, I think i'd rather make a few dollars.


Its desirable to get this sort of fungus action going as well as the normal mulching from leaf litter. 

                                     

Andrew

[Andy Mack]

This is a 14 year old Quandong (Elaeocarpus grandis) thats been felled.  This tree can grow to 35 metres and up to 2 metres diameter.   The beauty of this timber is that its fast growing, strong, easily machined and low shrinkage, but it is rather bland. 

Uses are : Because it is strong, light and straight grained, it is used for Masts, oars and bent timbers in boat building.  It is reported to be one of the best steam bending timbers of the world.  Also very good for mouldings, joinery, plywood, veneer, and furniture.


                                     

This sample would be 40 cm (15.75") diameter with very little taper over what would have been a 6 to  7 metre (20' to 23')  length log.

[sawmillsi]

Andrew,

I too have visited most of the local sub-tropic rainforest plantations (i live at Brunswick Heads and have studied at SCU in Lismore) and some look real good eh!

I like the Silver Quandong (or Blue Fig) in the pictures but the market you speak of, where is it?

This is the single biggest problem for these plantations. They are not being thinned because those logs are not yet commercial (for the applications you spoke of) as they are too small in diameter and there is not enough resourse, and they owner does not want to have a thinning cost him/her money.

Its the egg and chicken thing again.

I have milled Blue Fig myself and its real nice, not like Paulonia (which is for my money S&*%!), it has a real nice light grain through it.

Have you had a look at the Rocky Creek Dam planting - much nicer.

Simon

[asy]

Have you had a look at the Rocky Creek Dam planting - much nicer.

Simon

Hiya Simon, the last photo of the cut Quandong was at Rocky Creek Dam. 

We had a great weekend, I took a few photos (well, OK, around 400)...

We are yet to see a plantation we are really impressed by. Rocky Creek Dam was nice, but it was not designed as a commercial plot, so there's no drop corridor...  However the trees looked the most advanced so far.

We've been looking through the differrent 'systems' between the Queensland forest system, and the Mitchell system, etc, but none of them seem the whole bag of chips.

I think what we will 'probably' end up doing is a mix of them all. Learn from them but not jump into either pool.

The big problem with all the ones we've seen so far, is that nothing that we've seen that's over about 5yo has been planted for commercial forestry, they keep going on about ecology, and reforestation, and wildlife habitat, but hey, till the possums pay for my bills, they can live in the state forest, I want my commercial forest to be just that.

The big question is, which species to plant, and in what mix.

We would be VERY interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Oh, by the way, we are in 60in rainfall, with DEEP fertile soil. (current owner cites 15ft and still diggable).

The other main problem with the current 'systems' is that no-one seems to be willing (or able) to give us any sale pricings or indicaitons of marketability. They all say This is the best, or That is the best, but not saying why or how...

asy

[Andy Mack]

Hi Simon

Thanks for your comments.  Good to hear candid comments from someone in Industry.   

AS for marketing , that's what ASY is for   

Seriously, marketing is a major issue.  I'd really like to talk to you more on this subject.

I would think that its important to thin these forest for the sake of the other trees, especially since they're higher dollar trees.  If markets were a problem, I'd fell them, have them milled, and store them untill I can obtain prices I liked, they'll be nicely seasoned by then.

I have seen furniture made from Quandong and it is really nice.

Andrew

[Andy Mack]

Both have markets in surfboards and boat building.  I milled a plantation last year near Taylors Arms and most of it went for boat building.  10% went for surfboard manufactures up in the gold coast and some wnt for tables.

Both look like ceder when coloured.

If you get down to Coffs Harbour I can show you all sorts.

arthur

Thanks Arthur

Sounds great.

[asy]

AS for marketing , that's what ASY is for   

Andrew

 

asy

[sawmillsi]

Asy and Andrew,

I don't really think that the market in Australia is big enough in either the woodern surfboard or woodern boat manufacture to warrant planting trees and investing capital. After considering investment needed, Balsa is still cheap from SE Asia and the pacific.

What trees to plant? The million dollar question!

One of the problems (in my mind - as a forester/sawmiller) with mixed plantations is when time comes to thin, which one do you thin???

In NZ, the forest reseach mob over there have been playing around with 2 species mixed plantations with every other row being a species. You can use a fast growing species and a slow growing species - real easy.

But when you get 15 different species that all grow at different rates and with different characteristics - no hope.

For my money, I would pick 2 or 3 species (possibly Blue Fig, Silky Oak and Blackwood (either Tasmainia or Victoria seed stock - not north coast stuff)).

These 3 have existing markets in the cabinet making and fine furniture markets in Australia and though NZ.

Simon

[Andy Mack]

Simon

I'm thinking along the same lines.  I knew it had to be one species per row, with Blue Fig and Silky Oak at the top of the list.  I thought Qld Maple would get into the list.

Simon:  When you refer to Blackwood you are refering to Acacia melanoxylon?   


Andrew

[Andy Mack]

Hi OWW

I checked out your thread, and wow, very impressed.  Looks like a fantastic setup.

Are you now in a position of making a good percentage of your income just from selling the timber you've milled from your own land?

Andrew,

Check out this thread

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=1400.0

It will give you a glimplse of what I have been trying to accomplish in the last couple of years.  Progress has been slow do to other projects taking precedence. 

Good luck with your adventures and be sure to keep us informed of your progress.

[Ianab]

The other main problem with the current 'systems' is that no-one seems to be willing (or able) to give us any sale pricings or indicaitons of marketability. They all say This is the best, or That is the best, but not saying why or how...

Thats certainly a problem with lesser known species. It is hard enough to put a value on those lesser known logs now, let alone in 30 or 40 years.

Simons advice to go with known currently marketable species is good from a financial point of view. If you have 500 mature blackwood trees NOW, you would be smiling. It's reasonable to assume the same will be the case in 30 years time.

If markets were a problem, I'd fell them, have them milled, and store them untill I can obtain prices I liked, they'll be nicely seasoned by then.

Thats about the best way to go about marketing unusual species. If you are able to do that then good   But you are taking on the work, responsibility and risk yourself instead of selling standing trees to a commercial operator and banking the cheque. What you get for the trees will mostly depend on your own marketing ability. If can be done, but no one is going to predict how well you are going to do with it.

90% of the trees planted in NZ are unfortunately Pinus radiata   . This isn't because it's superior timber. The wood is pretty average actually, but the infrastructure is set up to deal with it and the harvest cycle is about 25 years for good saw logs. You can use a crystal ball and educated guesses to predict what your return will be. There is allways a ready market for pine logs although the price fluctuates a bit. Blackwood, walnut, kauri, cypress are better timber and they also grow well here, but the harvesting and marketing is a bit more of a mission, especially with small numbers of trees.

I do like what you are planning to do though, good luck  

ian

[sawmillsi]

Andrew,

Yes, Acacia melanoxylon is also know as Blackwood or Tassy Blackwood - it grows up and down the entire eastern seaboard of Australia. But the Blackwood from down south is a much better tree (better form and taller).

There was a QLD Maple plantation up in North QLD, did really well. Was harvested in the last 5 years or so. I think the age of the plantation was about 30 or 40 years or so.

I would do some research on growth rates and if you decide to use this species, I would use a secondary species that grows faster so you can harvest it first.

Also look at QLD Kauri (Agaesthis robusta?) - it has a real nice form and is not to slow either.
Simon

[Andy Mack]

Thanks Simon

You're a mine of information. 

I'll check it out

[crtreedude]

Interesting topic,

I can't tell you much about growing in the sub-tropics, since I live in the tropics but a word of advice.

A lot of people get into growing trees because someone (usually with something to sell) tells them they are going to get rich. There is money to be made - but boy you had better do it right. For example, stick a  bunch of trees in the ground and not maintain them and you are likely to not have much value - the numbers people quote you are for good trees, not poorly grown.  I have 164 acres, and I have 3 fulltime workers cleaning, pruning, fixing fences, etc.

If you want to know how much things are worth - take a trip to the sawmill. It doesn't matter that you are planning on milling your own - you will find out how much it is worth local. Every step away from local gets more expensive and more of an investment. Do not wait until you have planted trees to start thinking about "How am I going to sell these things?!" 

For me, I like working with the price at the sawmill.  What will they pay me to deliver them at their yard.  Since my trees are on my property, I figure I can cut for the same price.

Balsa is interesting - we scratch the ground and we have balsa growing.  We left a few growing - 6 months, 12+ feet, 4 inches in diameter.
 
As far as unthinned stands, if you have to, get in there and start dropping trees - if the trees have no market because they are too small - then just drop em. They are stealing your future profit. They value of  the trees goes up when the size get's bigger, so anytime they trees are not growing, you are losing. It is better to have a few big trees than lots of small.

If you wish, check out our website www.fincaleola.com to see what we are about.

[Ianab]

CRs comments about pruning / thinning are correct.
You want those big butt logs to be pruned clear wood.  For example unpruned Mac cypruss logs are worth $50 ton, pruned veneer grade Mac logs are worth $300 ton. So some trees (2 ton of logs) are worth $100 and some are worth $600. Both cost $50 to harvest.
Planting denser than your final crop is a valid forestry practice. The closer trees encourage good form in the better trees, then thin the runts / poor form / extras to waste. A second thining may produce small sawlogs, but they wont be high quality. Concentrate on producing those big clear logs. Sawyers like them cos they produce big clear boards = $$

When people talk about 'old growth' timber they mean old slow growing trees that grew as a tall spindly sapling in a light-well in a forest. If you look at Kauri or Rimu trees in a forest they can reach 50ft tall and only be 6" diameter. All the lower branches are shed naturally and the wood grown after that is all nice clear stuff. After 200 years you have a 3ft diam log thats 90% clear wood. That is what you are trying to emulate by planting close, thinning and pruning, hopefully in less time 

Ian

[crtreedude]

I think the biggest scam that I see here in Costa Rica on plantations is selling to people who don't know that when you buy your land, the costs have only started - you aren't done yet by a long ways.

Right now we have a glut of poorly grown teak in Costa Rica in my opinion.  The trees have lots of knots and not very big because they were planted too close, and not thinned.

The goverment provided the seedlings and at times, the labor. They were stuck in the ground and so there is a lot of very poorly grown teak right now. Useful for flooring and decking - but neither is  used in Costa Rica. (They believe in concrete and tile!)

Expect a lot more expenses in the early years until the trees get tall - then it slows down, but you are trying to cause the trees to grow like they would if they were competing for light.

If you don't, you might just end up with firewood or pulp.

Fred

[Andy Mack]

Thanks Guys

CRtreedude:  I take on board what you are saying about the "those" who are pushing the big dollars.  I had some trouble trying to reconcile their claims against the low royalty dollars I see.      Our plantations would be relatively small.  I can see that if we either do ourselves or contract all the felling, milling,etc,  and be happy to put stock into inventory (ie, seasoning), then not to mention marketing - is the way to maximise our investment.

We have several more courses to do, visits of plantations / owners before we do anything.  Thanks to all the sage advise, I think we'll be increasing our marketing efforts before we commit


Andrew

[Andy Mack]

CRtreedude , Ianab


That's the one thing that stuck in my mind.  I saw evidence of not form pruning, not weeding, and then not thinning.  In fact I see more evidence of all the mistakes than  of a well run plantation.  The best ones I've seen so far are either very young ie 3 yo (maintained professionally) or were planted for rehabilitation purposes (maintained by enthusiasts). 

I think I'll have to build in the cost of contractors doing the maintenance, even though we intend on doing it ourselves. That way if we get distracted or overwhelmed we can get afford to get the contractors in.
.

Andrew

[Andy Mack]

CRtreedude


I'm bit of a numbers man, (trying to become a "man on the land" man). 

I noticed you are projecting an IRR of10% to 20%.  This is consistant of the figures I eventually came up with once I sorted out the Hype.  (not that I am in any way finished on my projections - lots more homework to do).      How well do you think you are tracking your projections so far?   

[crtreedude]

I am way over my numbers.    I think my numbers are double my projections. The reasons are the following:

1. My partner is Costa Rican and saves me money at every turn.  He owns 1/3 of the business and so works it like it is his.  The plantation is always maintained, always nearly perfect - of course since we have visitors about every other week, it has to be.

2. We bought incredibly good land - our growth rates are 3 TIMES the average in CR.  Normally, the first thinning of teak of value is projected to be between 6 to 8 years in our area - I have been told that I am going to have to thin no later than 4.5 to 5.5 years.  And we planted 815 trees per hectare, so the thinnings will be about 9 to 10" in diameter. We just cut some teak near us on the same soil that was not well cared for that after 9 to 10 years was 14+ inches in diameter - and almost all heart wood.

Average growth of teak is 1 to 1 1/2 meters in the first year - we got 4+ meters. Now, we have many trees after 18 months that are about  8+ meters tall and almost 100% more than 6 meters.  The diameter is between 7 to 10 centimeters (3 to 4 inches) with some more.

3. We spend a lot taking care of the trees, etc. The bulk of our trees will be nearly perfect.  We keep them clean and keep them pruned.

In all truth, I get an offer for the plantation about every 3 months. (Not going to)  We also have others starting plantations around us - they put in the money and we manage crews, etc.  Training workers, maintaining the plantation, finding good sources for trees, starting the trees the right way,  protecting your investment, etc. are all important issues. Trees will grow just about anywhere, but valuable trees are valuable because they won't just grow anywhere without care.

Hector, my partner, used to raise cattle - my family used to raise vegetables. I guess we think trees need the same attention as cattle and vegetables. We watch over them like something could go wrong at anytime - so disease and problems (like pigs from the neighbors) really don't get a chance to get a good foothold.

We are pretty proud of what we are accomplishing - Harold of Florida Dead Header fame has seen our operation and can tell you about us.

Fred

[OneWithWood]

L-Plate I think I am about a year away from garniering any meaningful income from lumber sales.  To date all the income has come from sales of standing timber.

[sawmillsi]

Andrew,

When I saw your IRR of 10-20% i was very concerned.

We (when I was at uni) did some numbers on a very good plantation of Flooded Gum (Euc. grandis) - considered to be a very, very good plantation.

Given a initial cost of AU$1,500/Ha and planting close to start then thinning at years 8, 12 and then a final prune at 18 (might be a couple of years off with those numbers), and grading the thinned trees as:

1st thin - non commercial
2nd thin - poles and pulp
final thin - sawlog and pulp

We only got a IRR of about 7%, and that is considered to be about right.

To get as high as you have, well I would be suspect (if the number was 7-10% I would think, ok, maybe the purchase price of the land was cheap and there was a very low planting cost and at the same time thinking that the timber coming out of it was going to be used for cabinet timber and probably not worth less than $1200/m3 as rough sawn green).

Just my thoughts.

Simon

[crtreedude]

I have to admit, I was a little surprised about the 10 - 20% Understand that I consider what I am doing a bit of a fluke - it isn't all skill as much as I would like to think that way. Also, understand a lot of people have lost a lot of money growing teak and other woods in Costa Rica. If they got 10% IIR they would be thrilled.

Also, my labor costs are very low because labor here quite frankly is cheap - think about $1.00 USD per hour for farm labor.

The best thing you could do now is put all your numbers in a spreadsheet and try to break them, look for what you have not factored in, also evaluate your risk. Be aware, over 25 years, small risks have a way of happening.

There is money to be made - but never think it will be easy. Also, if you don't do it right, there is a lot of money to be lost.

At this point you should try to be a skeptic - try to break the numbers and try to figure in all of the factors that could make you wish you never thought about growing trees.

Fred

[Andy Mack]

right or wrong, in my case, I deliberately didn't include the cost of land.   

It wasn't purchased for income producing reasons.  It is quite expensive land.  If we didn't grow trees, the horses would use it.   

So its a question of what  return on my cash can I get and have fun.   

Andrew

[sawmillsi]

Andrew,

Where in QLD are you thinking of doing this?

I'll be back from the UK on the 3rd April if you want to meet for a coffee - we are about 20min's south of the NSW/QLD border (thats about 3 hours North of Coffs Harbour).

Simon

[Andy Mack]

Simon

Sunshine Coast hinterland , but I am currently in Brisbane.  You're not that far from us, we'll come down one day after the 3rd, it'd be fantastic to meet and have a coffee.   

I'm doing Jack Mitchell's 2 day workshop on the 2nd and 3rd 

Andrew

Andrew,

Where in QLD are you thinking of doing this?

I'll be back from the UK on the 3rd April if you want to meet for a coffee - we are about 20min's south of the NSW/QLD border (thats about 3 hours North of Coffs Harbour).

Simon

[sawmillsi]

Jack Mitchell?

[Andy Mack]

Jack Mitchell is quite well known around Lismore and more so in the Sunshine Coast.

He's a nice old Gentleman.  Some believe he is too rigid and I was agreeing with them.  Jack went along these farm tours that DPI put on and I listened.  He is making more sense to me all the time.  I listen to them on matters of silviculture and try not to listen when it comes to income. 



http://forestfreedom.org/cogf4/plantations.html


Andrew

[asy]

Jack Mitchell is quite well known around Lismore and more so in the Sunshine Coast.
Andrew

Jack's also been highly awarded by the powers that be, governmentally, with:

an Order of Australia Medal (For service to the forestry industry, particularly through the development of forest farming using native timber species, and to the environment.)

a National Medal ( awarded for diligent long service to the community in hazardous circumstances, including in times of emergency and national disaster, in direct protection of life and property)

a  The Order of the British Empire - Medal (Civil) / British Empire Medal (Civil) for services to the Rural Fires Board

and a Centenary medal ( For distinguished service to the nation and continuing service to primary industries).

Now, not saying this means that what he says is 'law' or that I agree with everything (haven't investigated enough one way or the other), just saying that he's not a fly-by-nighter.

asy

[crtreedude]

Just my dos colones (a colone is worth about 1/4 of a penny)

In any industry, there are people who take a road that is less traveled, sometimes it heads to a dump,  but othertimes it perhaps leads to a new paradigm.

It is my opinion that the mono-cropping is here to stay - just like cattle replaced wild animals in the forest being used for food. I don't see that going away quickly either. Not with the level of population in the world. There are tree species that do well mono-cropping and are in high demand - and they probably will always be grown that way.

There are serious issues that face mono-cropping - but substitute cows for trees and you will see that often they have been dealt with in the past. It requires more focus to mono-crop than to have a natural forest, but usually it is more profitable.

We are using mono-crop techniques for the first phase of the plantation, then shifting to a perpetual forest. The first phase produces a "crop" that pays off the land, the second phase is for sustainability. Besides, I think many of the trees that are not grown in plantation will be much more valuable in the future - just like buffalo is more expensive than beef.

Besides, I like rainforests and I have the pleasure of creating a system where I can have my forest, and my lumber too.

About half of our plantation is mixed with wild areas separating the mono-crops.

One of the things if you are looking at getting into Farm Forestry to remmeber is that when all you have is a hammer - everything looks like a nail. The people who I know who are doing well are very well read - they don't just throw trees in the ground, but they are starting small  and running experiments. Then, when they know what they are doing, they go full scale. There is no need to be in a hurry, and remember that your first few years will setup how much money you will make in the future.

Fred

P.S.  I found the article very interesting.