Author Topic: Looking for plans for band mills without auto tires (Read 4649 times)

Doc · « **on:** March 10, 2005, 11:52:56 am »

I have hit a couple of members here up for info about mills they built, and have gotten a response from one so far.

I am looking for plans for a band mill. I have been searching through the net and everything I can find so far uses auto tires and wheels for the blade wheels. I know there has to be a better way than this. I am just not up for this design. I have a cooks catalog, and have looked at most of the manual mills on the market, and just don't see where the price tag comes in for the materials for the beast.

Anybody got plans or has built their own mill using band mill wheels? I have a fair idea of what I am wanting to do, but want to make sure things look right on paper before I make the first part.

Doc

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2005, 11:59:33 am »

Doc
Tim Cook is the man to talk to about steel band wheels,and they machine crown the ones they sell. The only difference I have seen between auto tire mills and steel wheel mills........... is the wheels.
Seveveral suppliers will sell you the whole basic head assembly, or you can buy the wheels.
Or you could go the pulley route with the bands.

Doc · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2005, 12:24:16 pm »

I am looking at buying the wheels, and carriers from Cooks if I go this route. They are close, and have a good rep from what I have been reading here, and other places. considering they are only a few hours away from me I can't go wrong. I am planning on using their guides, and wheels. Like I read somewhere, Fla_DH posted....if it works why not use it, or something to that effect.

I am just looking for someone elses design that worked out well, so I don't have to start trying to design this thing too. I could do it, but would rather not have to take the time if I can get away with it.

Doc

jrokusek · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2005, 01:28:22 pm »

Go to http://www.diybandmill.com and click on photos on the left side of the page. Check out the mill by gomango called "The Badger Sawmill" (gomango is also a member of this forum). I believe he used sheaves and a belt to fit inside the groove of the sheave. Just something else to chew on for ideas.

I'm using trailer tires for mine. Just a cost issue with me. If I could convince my wife that I really NEED this mill I'd probably use something else too.

jim

jrokusek · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2005, 01:30:25 pm »

My error. I'm thinking of the wrong forum. He did use actual bandwheels.
Jim

Doc · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2005, 01:44:12 pm »

I have been to the DIY site. Was hoping for more than just a forum I guess. Still impressive to see what some of you guys have done with stuff from the scrap pile.

I built half my machine shop from scrap stuff, and am still working on the rest of it. I can see that power hacksaw project getting built in short order for something like this. I don't think my elbows would hold up to all that stress....hahahaha!

Doc

Rod · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2005, 05:12:22 pm »

I'd say the auto tires are better cause they keep the blade cool and thats why you don't need to use water.The blade doesn't slip,they don't ware out ,they don't break blades,and their easy to tension.I don't understand why anyone would use anything else.

Doc · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2005, 05:37:02 pm »

Well Rod, lookiing at yours and Buzz comments on the subject, and rethinking the budget a bit, the auto tires are starting to sound pretty good. Tractor Supply (I love that place for fabbin stuff) has the trailer tires and wheels like one of the mill makers uses pretty cheap. I suppose combined with some good guides and track I could put together a pretty mean machine.

Doc

Bibbyman · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2005, 05:58:50 pm »

Please don’t scrimp on the shielding of the blade. I’ve seen pictures of some of home built (and a few cheep commercial made) mills that are down right dangerous.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2005, 06:18:04 pm »

Yup, 12" boat trailer wheels and tires are narrow, right dia. for longer blade life, cheaper, and get 'em balanced. Get the second hub and machine an insert for it. That will make the drive wheel and hub. Ours is internal. It worked, with some luck.

Gotta agree with Bibby 100%. Them blades will eat yer lunch if they come outta that cover.

Doc · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2005, 06:57:20 pm »

Armour around that blade band is one place I am not scrimping. I plan on overbuilding gaurds. I don't want anything coming out of that thing but sawdust,and noise.

Other plans are working.

Doc

Rod · « **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2005, 07:29:54 am »

For the blade guides you could use 2 bearning at the top and 2 on the bottom and one on the back of the blade.Just make sure the barnings are for 5000 RPM's or better.There about $3 each.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2005, 07:50:15 am »

Not knocking the exposed bearing type guides, but, I built our first set, using exposed bearings. The lube system will slowly wash the grease out of the bearings. I even used a double seal type, that didn't last much longer.

I bought a used set of Cooks from a member, and only have replaced bearings in one, so far. Too much grease is bad. Too much lube, (Pine) will shorten your bearings life. No problem with changing them, though.

Some mills use "tool Steel" as solid pads. I don't really care for that method. They could heat the blade when the blade rises or falls. The roller guides have a little sound that lets you know that something is not right.

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:00:22 am »

how do you set them up where the bearings aren't exposed?

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2005, 11:07:56 am »

Go to Cook's Homepage and view them. They are enclosed in a guide wheel with a flange on the back, so the blade isn't pushed off the wheel.

D._Frederick · « **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2005, 11:57:16 am »

Rod,

The inflatable tires for band wheels have a number of problems that can and do cause problems. 1). If they are not correctly balanced, you are going to have a lot of vibrations. 2) The tires may not be a 100% round which will cause the blade to whip. 3) With the pressure of the band on the tire, there may not be enough crown on the tire to allow the band to track correctly. 4) When a blade breaks, it can cut the tire up enough to require replacement.

The tire design mills reduce the sale value of the bandmill. (Only one commercial made mill use infaltable tire). Probably what you save on tires is what you will loose when you go to sell it

Doc · « **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2005, 05:43:14 pm »

D....tire balance may be relevant to some degree, but balancing is not rocket science. I raced motorcycles for years (road, not MX) that I balanced on the bike doing nothing but spinning the wheel on the axle, and placing weights opposite the bottom till it stopped at a different point every time (static balance...may not be the best explanation). I ran well over 100mph and never had a problem with vibs, and at that speed I can assure you that if it were there I woudl feel it.

Tire round or out of round in this day and age is fairly small right out of the mold. Tolerances have come in closer than you would think, and with a little give I would not think that a slight roundness issue would be so bad.

Knowing a fair amount about mettalurgy, and the effects of heat on spring steel (band mill blades) taking the heat out of the blade gently is one of the most life giving things you can do for spring steel. if you build up too much heat in the blade you ruin the spring temper, and the metal becomes brittle....this equates to breakage.

I did not liek the idea of using tires for wheels just because I generally do not build anything that way. In my mind it just seemed cheap, but I am starting to come around to the other way of thinking. I am looking at alot more info than what a few of these guys are posting here. You are right though, there is only one vendor that is using them in his mills, and he currently has the best pricepoint of any vendor. According to a couple of articles he references in his brochures his mill was rated very well by the folks doing some testing (I can't recall the tester at this time, but will look it up). It wasn't because it was the fastest, or the biggest, but because the cost of the machien coupled withthe production and the cost of repair parts make it very likeable.

Just to defend both sides of the argument......

Doc

sawdust · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2005, 06:49:12 pm »

Could a person use the fake spare tires that come in little cars? They have a very tall crown and use 80 psi. A friend was collecting parts to try build a mill this way.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2005, 07:04:44 pm »

They will work, but, have a big dia. So, ya gotta match 'em up.

Getting hubs for them is the tricky part. Boat trailer parts are cheap and plentiful.

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2005, 07:06:40 pm »

Doc
Also if the tires are out of TRUE a forum member has a cure for that also, rbshaw, made a siple jig to set a chisel or some kinda cutter to true tires on the mill as it spins, as one would on a lathe.I like the idea of using larger wheels for two reasons, easier on the bands, and better for cutting large diameter logs in half and quarters
I dont like the larger per blade cost it will create.

sawdust · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2005, 07:31:05 pm »

Merv was taking the front...drive assembly? Out of a Crysler product for the drive side and the rear part for the idler. They have real nice place to bolt onto and shim for true.

david

Rod · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2005, 07:34:08 pm »

I think the reason tires are cheaper then the custom band wheels is cause they make those tires by the zillions,and the spent zillions to prove they work on cars.A little band blade wont hurt a tire riding on it.I never heard of anyone wearing out a tire yet on a bandmill.

wiam · « **Reply #22 on:** March 11, 2005, 08:21:29 pm »

I have had blades come off my inflatable tires. (My mistake usually) Has chewed up the cedar blade gaurd, but never left a mark on the tire. Before I mounted them on the mill I took them to a local garage that had a special machine called a tire balancer. He charged me about $8 to balance both of them. Never had a tracking problem. I have never worried about the resale value of my homemade mill because I don't have much invested. That is why I built it.

Will

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #23 on:** March 11, 2005, 08:28:20 pm »

I have a ford tempo I have been planning on scrapping.The front wheel drive and brake assembly as well as the rear whell spindle would make fine and heavy service set up .

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2005, 08:42:42 pm »

We paid $20.00 each for 15'-8" Monkey Blades.

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #25 on:** March 11, 2005, 08:49:55 pm »

FLA
Youguys used bigger wheels didnt ya?

csedd71 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 11, 2005, 08:53:34 pm »

I have cut a few thousand bd/ft on my "rubber-tired" mill since buying it last year. The 15" utility trailer tires are not balanced and do not vibrate. Bands seem to last longer on tire mills because stresses are less (tension and harmonic) than rubber-coated steel wheels. I rarely have to run water/coolant and have very little build-up on the blades (cutting mostly spruce and birch, down 6 months-2 yrs).

I have only actually had 2 blades break while running. One was during re-sawing edges of several boards and my son did not tighten the dogs well and the boards shifted severely pinching the blade. The other was from hitting a large spike imbedded in the log. Both stopped almost instantly with just a little slice into the aluminum guard; (no tire damage at all).

I run Timber Wolf blades; usually one per 6-8 hours of running time (about 400 bd/ft) and replace them after 7-8 sharpenings. Not sure how this rates for small mills, but I am happy with the savings over commercial lumber.

I ran the mill through most of the winter here in Alaska and have not even had to adjust the tire air pressure (15 psi).

If your tires do not have a real good crown in them, you will have to adjust your blade set about every 3rd-4th sharpening because the tire-side teeth will push in a few thousandths and cause the blade to dive slightly as they wear.

Good luck

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #27 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:08:49 pm »

Buzz, we used 13" boat trailer tires, 24" dia. on the tread. A note to the above post, We ground the treads on the tooth side of the blade, so the blade would not hit it. Only time we lose set is when the Dummy saws the stops.

Oops, csedd, Welcome to the Forum.

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #28 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:21:42 pm »

FLD
How big of a log max. could you quarter on homey the John deere colored home mizer?

Rod · « **Reply #29 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:27:04 pm »

sorry doc about throwing this thread off topic but I thought you might want to know about why some people use the tires.Maybe someone will jump in and tell the good points about the metal band wheels.

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #30 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:36:49 pm »

Rod ,I am not sure if this is off topic..

.Man this forum is at its best to me when everyone starts chatting in the topic zone and I can glean the benefits.........Doc you want to know how to build a mill, Getting these guys to open up about thier experiences in general is GOLD

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #31 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:54:31 pm »

Buzz, if the log is perfect, we can run a 36" log, but, the slab will be 15" thick.

Rod · « **Reply #32 on:** March 11, 2005, 10:14:51 pm »

And I have a theory on why the blades don't break.It cause the tires act as a shock absorber were the steel wheels don't give.

D._Frederick · « **Reply #33 on:** March 11, 2005, 10:36:43 pm »

I have never seen a mill running auto tires equal the smothness and vibration free of a Baker or WM mill using steel wheels. I guess that is why its some were around a 100 to 1 using metal wheel to rubber on the commercial made mills.

With the metal wheels, there are not the tracking problem of keeping the blade running in one location as there is with a broad surface of a tire. With the metal wheel, they are aligned in the same plane and not much further adjustment is needed for correct tracking. A while back there was a post showing how the tires had to be angled to keep the blade from flying off, this does not occur with metal wheels.

Rod · « **Reply #34 on:** March 12, 2005, 07:59:04 am »

Maybe the tires aren't as smooth as the steel wheels,I don't knowk,my tires seem smooth and the mill doesn't vibrate and my wheels aren't even balnced..and I've never heard of anyone who had tracking problems with the tires either.You do need to have a hinge on the idler wheel so you have a way to ajust the tracking tho.I do think that people have the idea of using tires does make the mill seem cheap built tho.I've came back after cutting a board and hit the end of the log and the blade doesn't come off when you do that,but on steel wheels they do.And the tires never need to be crowned like the steel wheeels do.Or if you have the steel wheels where your blade runs on top of a belt you have to replace them and thats about $20.

Rod · « **Reply #35 on:** March 12, 2005, 09:05:48 am »

I might of allready said this ,but I like a mill that is built with auto parts cause if something breaks all you have to do is find an auto parts store to find what you need to fix the mill.

rbarshaw · « **Reply #36 on:** March 12, 2005, 09:15:14 pm »

Doc
The Honda CB400A engine I use does a very good job for me, more power than I can use and an automatic transmission. If yours is a manual tranny I'm not sure how that would work, Just fine I'd imagine, but with an auto tranny I don't have to work a clutch and there is a fluid cushion between the engine and the wheels. I don't know about steel wheels, as I use Mobilehome tires , 70# inflation press. Built in 12 vdc brake, and they give me no trouble.

I have many pictures on here in the thread 'THE BANDMILL THAT I BUILT' and 'The Bandmill That I Built Continued'

Furby · « **Reply #37 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:42:08 am »

Buzz, I came up with a way to make a "convertable" mill. Can cut real wide, but be narrowed out for most smaller logs and use shorter blades. Never built it, so don't know for sure that it would work.
Also have a couple of small cars sitting around that I had planned to swipe spindles and drives off of as well.

Norwood sells the guides like Harold is talking about as well. I had the sealed bearing type and they locked up so I upgraded to the enclosed type. The standard sized sealed bearings DON'T fit standard sized bolts. Ya need to order berings that fit, and they cost more. There can be VERY little play on those bearings, the standard sizes have too much play.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #38 on:** March 13, 2005, 06:43:34 am »

Furby, The Cook's guides use Alternator bearings. Don't ask how we found that out.

When you replace the bearings, you have to cut a little groove into the side of the inner race, to allow the grease to flow from the hollow thru-bolt into the bearing. I believe, I took off the seal in the inside of each bearing, to allow the grease to flow, when I put the bearings in. Can't remember.

RJV · « **Reply #39 on:** March 13, 2005, 07:17:46 am »

I don't know anything about building a mill but I did see one that used solid rubber forklift tires. He said the rubber was hard enough for good tension but not hard enough to efect the blades set. He had picked them up at a scrap yard. I can only say he did an great job for me.

Doc · « **Reply #40 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:04:03 pm »

As far as the tread knocking the set out, that is easily cured y any number of means. I have personally used an angle grinder on the outside tread of drag slicks (cars) to narrow them up enough to fit in the 10" tire classes.....the same thing applies. Simply grind off the section of offending tread.

I can see the shock absorber analogy as holding water. Makes sense to me. Something creates tension, something abosrbs the tension the tensioned piece doesn't get stressed, and doesn't break.

I am thinking if I do this, that aside fromt he guides (Cooks), and a few other pieces, I am going withthe tire idea. Tractor supply has the weld on spindles, hubs, and wheel/tire combos in the 13" tire size that should make this fairly easy (at least the driven, and idle wheels anyway).

More details to work out, but this shoudl work out inexpensively.

Doc

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #41 on:** March 13, 2005, 04:14:07 pm »

Doc, do the 12" wheels-tires. Less width, slightly less dia., but, lighter weight and CHEAPER.

Didja get the photos in yer e-mail

Rod · « **Reply #42 on:** March 13, 2005, 05:11:55 pm »

Doc,my blade set hits the tire and I don't think it takes the set out.I don't really know tho cause I don't have any way to tell if it is or isn't.But they cut good and stright.I think the main thing is having the guides set right and having a sharp blade and enough power were the blade doesn't slow down when your cutting.

Doc · « **Reply #43 on:** March 13, 2005, 06:26:00 pm »

Fla....got the pics....thanks! Went and looked too, and not really interested. Lots of issues.
The 12" tires are not thatmuch cheaper, but I could always put the extra length into cutting width.

Rod...I would run it for a while and take a good look. If it looked like the tires were taking the set out then it is easy to remedy with a homeade truing setup, or angle grinder.

What is a reasonable cutting width to work out? What width blades (1.25 or 1.5)? Had thoguht that having 40" available cutting width would be more than enough, but that may be a real stretch. Any suggestions?

Doc

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #44 on:** March 13, 2005, 06:45:00 pm »

In addittion to Docs question,
what tire size would be suitable for cutting a 20" slab.?
I am looking at 15" rims.

What I am thinking is a 30" tire, which would mean about 8 feet of band plus the width of cut , say 40".

\The depth of cut limited by about 1/2 of the wheel diameter??

Rod · « **Reply #45 on:** March 13, 2005, 07:03:10 pm »

my tires are 20'',the blade is 12' and max cut between the guides is 24 1/2''.So max cant is a 24''X24'',2'' thick before it hits the tires at 24'' wide.I guess it all depends on what size of logs your planing on loading on a manal mill.A 28'X16' log seems kinda big to me to load on my manal mill.It's not as hard as I thought it was gona be tho. I made a log deck I could drive my truck on wih the log hooked onto the truck.When the log is on the log deck it rolls easy onto the mill.My mill sits on the ground

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #46 on:** March 13, 2005, 07:59:55 pm »

Ummmm, Rod, if your tires are 20" how do you get a 24" X 24" cut

? Especially 2" thick. I don't seem to be able to make these measurements work???

Doc, ya gonna make a 4 post mill

That would very extreme for a WM type design.

Buzz, When you put the blade guard on the cross section of the blade, between the wheels. you lose some of the depth. You would think that the 30" dia. would give a 30" deep cant. Taint so.

Also guys, you have to take into account the circular shape of the wheels, between each other. Look at a pic of a Bandmill sawhead, and follow the geometry of shape from the blade guides, upward, to the cross section blade guard. You lose quite a bit because of the curvature of the wheels.

Doc · « **Reply #47 on:** March 13, 2005, 08:21:05 pm »

DEfine 4 post mill or show me a pic. I have no idea what you are referencing.

What is reasonable here....

Doc

Rod · « **Reply #48 on:** March 13, 2005, 09:52:45 pm »

Deadheader,maybe I was wrong on the 2'x2' cant.I cant remember if I ever just cut a cant that big.But between the guides its 24 1/2 ''and if I drop the head down more then 2'' I'll hit the tires on a 2' wide board is what I'm trying to say..I was thinking if I flipped the log I could cut a 2'x2' cant.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #49 on:** March 13, 2005, 09:57:12 pm »

Doc, WM uses a tower to hold the sawhead. One track system. A 4 post design, has 4 posts to make up the frame that the sawhead is attached to. TimberKing, Timberharvester, and such. There are some 2 post mills, where the runners on the track are long, and you have 2 posts to hold the sawhead. Oscar being one brand. WM's LT-15 being another.

I look at the size being, how big of a slab can you handle when cut from the log or cant. A 36" wide X 12' long X 2" thick, is a real Butt Buster.

OK Rod. Makes sense. I believe Buzz was asking what size cant can you make with the drop down of the head

Could be wrong, though.

jrokusek · « **Reply #50 on:** March 13, 2005, 10:00:54 pm »

Doc,

I got lots of my stuff through northern tool Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company. I used a go-kart axle. It's a one inch axle with a keyway cut the entire length. The ends step down to 3/4". Bought matching 4 bolt hubs and 1" pillow blocks. Trailer tires that are 20.5" tall (12 inch rims) too. Got the whole package for $165 or so shipped to my door. If the sawmill thing doesn't work out for me at least I can build a screamin' go-kart!

Jim

Quote from: Doc on March 13, 2005, 02:04:03 pm

Tractor supply has the weld on spindles, hubs, and wheel/tire combos in the 13" tire size that should make this fairly easy (at least the driven, and idle wheels anyway).

More details to work out, but this shoudl work out inexpensively.

Doc

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #51 on:** March 13, 2005, 10:10:53 pm »

Yes FLD
I was wondering about using the mill to quarter larger logs........so A depth of cut at least 20" would be the best.

D._Frederick · « **Reply #52 on:** March 13, 2005, 10:12:45 pm »

J-,

A 1 inch shaft with a keyway cut in it so too light for the stress that a band blade will apply.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #53 on:** March 13, 2005, 10:32:34 pm »

Gotta agree with "D" on this shaft size. Way too light

Furby · « **Reply #54 on:** March 13, 2005, 10:39:22 pm »

Buzz, the depth of cut does not have to be limited to half the wheel size. You can build it so that the depth of cut is a bit under the dia. of the wheel. The design would have to take into account the stresses that are created by doing so though, and would increase the overall size and weight of the head a bit.

jrokusek · « **Reply #55 on:** March 13, 2005, 10:52:13 pm »

Seriously? I took an axle out of a ford F-150 and don't remember it being a heck of a lot heavier than this one. I keep thinking back to the axle on my Harley and it was smaller than 1". I guess I'm comparing apples to oranges with that application. So I should be looking at 1.25" or so?

Jim

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on March 13, 2005, 10:32:34 pm

Gotta agree with "D" on this shaft size. Way too light

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #56 on:** March 13, 2005, 11:08:45 pm »

It's not so much the size, it's the way it was hardened or Tempered. I would think 1¼" would be minimal. It should be heat treated for hardness. Can't guess what rockwell # though ?? Maybe one of our Engineers would add to this some. ??

A car or truck axle would work, and you can turn them down using carbide tools in the Lathe.

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #57 on:** March 14, 2005, 06:34:32 am »

yep, axles are special alloys, and hardened through a few different methods.

Rod · « **Reply #58 on:** March 14, 2005, 07:31:40 am »

OK,I get it now,Buzz's mill will be about 8 foot wide then.

Doc · « **Reply #59 on:** March 14, 2005, 09:50:59 am »

Axles from vehicles are steel combined with all kinds of stuff including nickel, chromium, and several other materials to add strenth and toughness to the steel. The axles are heat treated (hardened and tempered) specially for the application and load. Some are nitrided and peened to make them even tougher. You cannot compare that go kart axle to a truck axle and get the same thing.

My motorcycle uses a cold rolled 1020 steel axle that I made, but you are talking about a machien that weights 750 pounds withme onit, and will see a load in the 2K range when hitting road bumps. Not the same thing. The bump is a short interval stress, as opposed to the strain of having you or hydraulics pushing a pair of wheels with a band through a log. The band is already goign to be tensioned to about 2K to start with and you have over maxed that little axle right from the start. Then you are going to compound the issue by loading it even further in a different direction by pushing it through a log, and hitting knots, and tramp metal. Not a good idea. You can see stresses that will hit in the 6K range just in the tramp metal hits.

The axles are rockwell hardned to about 56 to 60, depending on the application. Some are softer, but the toughness of the material makes up the difference in the hardness. It has some give tempered into it, but it will spring back the small amount that it gives.

I am no engineer, but I have spent enough time playing with cars, motorcycles, knifemaking, and blacksmithing to know and read alot. I was fortunate enough to have a civil engineer for a grandfather, and I am glad I do. I was given the lessons in strngth of materials as I was learnign to do things around his farm growing up. Lots of fun, and interesting when you see how it works.

Doc

jrokusek · « **Reply #60 on:** March 14, 2005, 11:13:49 am »

Well shoot. Now I gotta find different axles.

I think there's enough meat on the hubs to be opened up for a larger axle. Need to get some larger pillow blocks too. I was trying to aviod visiting a machine shop if at all possible. I work for a technical college so maybe I can talk nice to our Machine Tool Department and see if they'll take pity on me. Oh yeah....one other thing. I worked for an aluminum plant at one time and we used to put most of the extrusion dies through a nitride process. I believe this process only hardened the surface - it wouldn't contribute to the overall strength. It would probably do wonders for something that needed a tough surface - like a crankshaft or bearings.

If anyone has a good source for a 1 1/4" shaft.....looks like I'm in the market to buy.

Jim

Doc · « **Reply #61 on:** March 14, 2005, 11:22:49 am »

Look at the trailer section of northern tool Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company, and look at the hub/spindle assemblies. You can get these as 4 or 5 bolt hobs, and they will more than take the stress. the tapered bearings are very serviceable, and the price is not so bad. Build that go kart and sell it, and use the money to get your hubs. You can even make a little extra for something else you can use for the mill.

Aluminum does not harden like steel. At best the hardest aluminum is equal to slightly harder than hardened mild steel.

You are correct though, nitriding is a surface hardening. Good for bearing surfaces, but the differential makers claim it better for the axle as a whole. I have yet to figure that one out, but they have equipment that I don't have.....

Now I am looking for pulleys.....

Doc

Buzz-sawyer · « **Reply #62 on:** March 14, 2005, 11:25:14 am »

Someonr has posted , with pics on this topic, I.E small shaft, temper, concensus was to use auto axle and turn down if necissary

Doc · « **Reply #63 on:** March 14, 2005, 11:51:16 am »

One of you guys was talking about using the spindles off a front wheel drive car, and I see that as a very good way to go about this. It certainly won't come apart on you under load.

I am one to over engineer stuff though, but I don't like down time. I don't much care for the idea of massive disintegration happening either. The thought of being at ground zero when the head comes apart does not appeal to me greatly.

Doc

jrokusek · « **Reply #64 on:** March 14, 2005, 11:58:18 am »

The 1" axle I bought says the following:
Tinsel strength: 73000 PSI
Yield: 66000 PSI

This, however, might just as well be written in a different language since I don't know what it means.

Jim

Doc · « **Reply #65 on:** March 14, 2005, 12:07:19 pm »

trust me....you wnat soemthing bigger. Do not put your neck out for something that can easily be replaced for a few more bucks and will give you piece of mind. Overbuild and worry less.

Do you or a neighbor have an old front wheel drive car sitting around with good rear spindles? This woudl be a good place to get the pices you need virtually free (well except for the goop to clean your hands up with, and a little time to take them off).

Those numbers equate out to a 1" grade 8 bolt. Now how many grade 8 bolts have you broken off with a torque wrench in your day. I have broken a few off....not 1" mind you, but fairly large ones. It will twist and shear off. Those numbers change every time you run the machine. You heat the steel while running it, and the time differential of the cooling process (slower or faster) will change the temper and hardness until they get brittle and break off.

Look at the Cooks parts and see what they are running behing those massive wheels and you will get an idea of why we are telling you that you want something bigger. I assure you we aren't trying to do anything but keep your head squarely located on your shoulders.

Doc

jrokusek · « **Reply #66 on:** March 14, 2005, 02:06:23 pm »

I'm notorious for twisting off bolts. I did some quick internet research and found that the Ford 9" axles or the Dana 60 axles may fit the bill. Depending on the year, spline count, etc. they are about 1.33" diameter and plentiful. I'll save the go-kart axle for a go-kart. Thanks guys!

jim

Doc · « **Reply #67 on:** March 14, 2005, 02:56:24 pm »

And those are easily modified to work the way you are planning to use them.

Doc

jrokusek · « **Reply #68 on:** March 14, 2005, 03:21:53 pm »

Had a wild hair and stopped by a place I pass on my commute to work. Company is called "Driveline Services." They always actually STOCK a bunch of 1.25" shaft with a keyway that is designed for stuff like this. Cost is about $11 per foot.

Jim

Doc · « **Reply #69 on:** March 14, 2005, 03:32:23 pm »

Why do you need keyed shaft?

If you go about it with the trailer hubs you have tapered bearings inside and out, and no need for keys to lose when you have to repack the bearings. Keyed shaft and the like to make that work just complicates things more than necessary.

Doc

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #70 on:** March 14, 2005, 04:11:36 pm »

how do you drive the drive wheel without a key on a tire bandsaw?

jrokusek · « **Reply #71 on:** March 14, 2005, 04:11:59 pm »

I was originally thinking of using something like this:

With trailer hubs I understand how the idler side works. How the heck do you drive the driven side? All I can see in my mind is 2 idler sides. I'm not sure how to attach a pulley to that contraption. Somehow a shaft must get attached to the spindle? You wouldn't want to weld it, would you? Anyone have a picture?

Now that you guys shot my drive design full of holes I'm at a loss of what to do. Don't get me wrong.....I appreciate the help. I prefer to keep all my limbs attached so stopping me now isn't a bad thing. Someone help me before I have a panic attack and break out the torch!

Jim

Quote from: Doc on March 14, 2005, 03:32:23 pm

Why do you need keyed shaft?

If you go about it with the trailer hubs you have tapered bearings inside and out, and no need for keys to lose when you have to repack the bearings. Keyed shaft and the like to make that work just complicates things more than necessary.

Doc

Doc · « **Reply #72 on:** March 14, 2005, 04:37:39 pm »

Offset pulley withthe bolt pattern of the hub. You can make up the offset by removing that much stock from the weld on tail of the spindle (a few thou).

Then again, your idea of a keyed shaft may work out well for the drive side. No offset pulley. I will have to look at what I drew out on paper and think again. I have plenty of large pulleys running around from various things. Hmmmm.......now you have me thinking again. I am wondering which one of this has been making this harder than it really is now....

Doc

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #73 on:** March 14, 2005, 05:24:38 pm »

How about this scenario

A rear axle, out of a car, that has the "donut" spare. It has the HUB on the axle. It has the SEAT for the bearing. It can be cut off and dressed for the other bearing. Cut a key slot for the pulley and mount it

Make any sense

??

Donuts are nearly free in junk yards. Carry a spare. The outside dia. is 25" on a full size car.

Doc · « **Reply #74 on:** March 14, 2005, 06:15:13 pm »

That advice came from a man who knows.

Looking at the pics of Homey you went through the gamut of figurin stuff out.

Off to the wrecking yard....

Doc

Danny_S · « **Reply #75 on:** April 01, 2005, 06:18:53 pm »

....... I like the title of this post and now the final post by the author....

Quote from: Doc on March 14, 2005, 06:15:13 pm

That advice came from a man who knows.

Looking at the pics of Homey you went through the gamut of figurin stuff out.

Off to the wrecking yard....

Doc

hiya · « **Reply #76 on:** April 01, 2005, 07:40:58 pm »

I used a rear wheel drive axel for the drive side and a rear spindle from a front drive car for the idler side for mine. I turned the axel down to fit the pillow blocks I had(1 1/4 " ) .Richard

jrokusek · « **Reply #77 on:** April 01, 2005, 11:08:06 pm »

Here is a good reference if anyone is looking for axle sizes: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-BV60/index1b.html Scroll about 2/3 of the way down the page to the chart labeled STRENGTH COMPARISON OF COMMON O.E. AUTOMOTIVE & RACING SPLINES. Gives lots of info on axle shaft sizes.

On another note I'm going with the 1.25" shaft. I have something kinda neat planned. When I get it back in a week or two I'll post pictures. I'm going to have to visit a machine shop after all.......

Jim

samdland · « **Reply #78 on:** April 11, 2005, 12:06:54 am »

I sent a link to some plans I made. Check your messages

Doc · « **Reply #79 on:** April 12, 2005, 09:40:24 am »

I got them.....very nicely laid out, and complete. I appreciate the link....

Doc

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