Author Topic: "River" log question. Fla. D. ? (Read 3007 times)

ellmoe · « **on:** February 22, 2005, 08:51:07 pm »

I received a call today from the office of a Ga. State Senator. It seems they wanted to know if the State of Florida was paid for the logs "harvested" from the State's waters. I told them that I was not sure, but did not think so. My understanding is that the logs are "lost personal property" and that there had been a Federal court ruling that limited any state from overly restricting the recovery of these logs. I admitted that I have no direct knowledge, but that I knew where all the smart guys hung out!... Well , anyway that site is offline, so I'd thought I'd try here.

Any takers?

Mark

Jeff · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2005, 09:04:03 pm »

I think you might have to wait for Harold, If he and Corley are going underwater logging tomorrow, he may be up at his camp.

Teri · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2005, 09:09:04 pm »

FDH won't be back until Thursday or Friday. Talked to him a couple of hrs. ago.

Chet · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2005, 09:09:45 pm »

Ron Scott may be able to answer your questions also.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2005, 09:27:31 pm »

FDH would have the most up to date info on Florida Log Salvage laws. Permits are required and as here in Michigan, stumage values need to be paid to the state for their salvage.

There is one court case still pending here in Michigan on ownership rights, but the State still prevails on the removal of any "woody debri' from the bottoms of "its waters". The recovered logs are scaled for their determined values just as any surface timber sale.

Paschale · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2005, 10:49:15 pm »

Ron,

So if somone sees a log floating in Lake Michigan after a storm, and they retrieve it, they're supposed to get a permit? And then they're supposed to pay the state for the log? Wow...that seems pretty crazy to me, considering those logs have been down there probably for around 100 years or so. I guess the government wants to get all they can!

J_T · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2005, 11:19:35 pm »

When the governor dives in an hooks on to that log then and only then would I give him a dime

Ron Scott · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2005, 12:08:57 am »

Submerged logs that have been left abandoned on the bottomlands are different than "floating " logs. The owner of floating logs has a reasonable period to recover them. In fact the state may fine you if you don't recover them, especially if they are a navigational hazard. Abandonment is usually considered to be 30 days if ownership isn't determined.

Once abandoned on the "bottomlands" the state takes over jurisdiction. An environmental assessment also needs to be made prior to removal of submerged logs that have been on the bottom for a number of uears, especially 100 years. Impacts to the lake or river bottom, fish habitat, cultural resources, etc, etc, need to be considered.

The freedom of the old maritime salvage law of "finders-keepers" doesn't exist much anymore.

Furby · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2005, 12:33:54 am »

Ron, how does that work with trees washed out from rivers?
Every spring there are several washed down stream in the larger rivers. One place I drive pass all the time is known to catch a loose tree every year or two, I'm guessing the same rules would apply?

DanG · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2005, 12:52:47 am »

In Florida, the only logs that are considered "fair game" for underwater loggers, such as FDH, are those that were felled by man. Trees felled by erosion or other natural causes are considered a part of nature and must be left.

I wonder what the Ga. Senator was up to? Are they thinking of re-opening Georgia's rivers for logging? Can't help but be suspicious, though. They've been trying for years to make Florida pay them for the water that flows to us through the Good Lord's river system, just because some of it fell as rain on their territory. Maybe they're gonna try to get a cut because some of "their" water flowed over those logs.

sigidi · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2005, 01:35:26 am »

Wow from an outsiders point, this all sounds amazing;

possibly getting fined if through on fault of your own a tree falls into a dreek after a storm?
proving 'ownership' of a fallen tree?
once they sink they become the governments?

Crikey that's off the charts - I know I'm gonna be watching this one for when FDH gets back.

Haytrader · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2005, 08:40:25 am »

I think Harold once said they had to pay a fee to the state each year.
And as I remember, it was surprisingly high, in my mind.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:03:20 am »

Furby,

Logs eroded into the river by nature and not cut by man are pretty much handled the same as DanG said. They become part of the river system as "woody debris" and usually can't be removed without prior approval of the party having jurisdiction.

Some common sense has to be used such as in emergency situations, flood damage, blocking dam and water system inlets, outlets, etc. Usually there is no "abandonment" indicated in such cases. Each situation has to be handled on its own merits.

The permits, fees, environmental assessments, and state/federal approvals needed for underwater log salvage put me out of that business here in Michigan some time ago. That includes shipwrecks also. Its pretty much now, all look and "don't touch".

Paschale · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2005, 04:02:31 pm »

Quote from: Ron Scott on February 23, 2005, 12:08:57 am

Submerged logs that have been left abandoned on the bottomlands are different than "floating " logs. The owner of floating logs has a reasonable period to recover them. In fact the state may fine you if you don't recover them, especially if they are a navigational hazard. Abandonment is usually considered to be 30 days if ownership isn't determined.

This is really intriguing to me, since I have a friend who fairly regularly snags logs that are a hundred years old out of one of the Great Lakes. He's active in the Coast Guard, and is on the water quite a bit. After big storms, apparently some of the old logs from the logging days can be stirred up, and released and float to the surface (just barely). If you know what to look for, you can see them, especially on a calm day. Some of them still even have the old markings on the butt ends of the logs. So, the claims of ownership are 100 years old, and at the same time, if they're left in the middle of one of the Great Lakes, they can really impose a safety hazard to those who don't know they're there. It sounds like he's doing boaters a service, as well as providing himself with some unique wood. Would this be considered improper by the authorities? If it is, that seems a bit unfortunate.

Larry · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:05:24 pm »

I’ve seen a pontoon boat on one of the corp lakes in Arkansas towing trees home after a big rain. I figured he was doing a public service by removing navigation hazards. Bet he has saved the lives of hundreds if not thousands riding in there 70 MPH bassboats and jet skis.

Ya don’t suppose this guy has a mill sitting in his backyard?

Just a wild thought....wonder if I could get the COE to pay me to remove all of these navigation hazards from there lakes?

Jeff · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:15:28 pm »

You guys must have some DanG big bass boats!

We can't get but 3 or 4 guys max in the ones I see around here and still go 70

Jeff · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:16:34 pm »

I dont understand what would enable a sinker log suddenly be able to float again.

Larry · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:20:29 pm »

Ron Scott · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:37:37 pm »

Attaching an air bag to them. A 50 gallon barrel or inner tubes will also make them float again.

Paschale · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:47:30 pm »

I've been baffled by that as well--but this friend of mine has hauled them outta Lake Michigan with the markings from the old logging companies intact. It's a mystery to me, with some sort of logical explanation. They don't ride at all on the surface of the water, but just sorta hover just below the surface of the water, and he says usually one end is slightly visible. I don't get how they show up at all, but he's hauled quite a few of them out, and I've seen the lumber he's made with them. I don't really have any reason to disbelieve him.... $:-\$

Jeff · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:50:00 pm »

Thats what I mean, 100 year old logs don't just start floating around lake Michigan do they? I can see how they might be a hazard in shallow water, but it doesn't seem like a log that has been on the bottom can suddenly become buoyant again.

Paschale · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2005, 06:15:22 pm »

I'll have to ask him what his explanation is on it...or find out more details about where he finds them. Maybe they're pushed into shallower waters or something with the turbulence of the Lake, and that's where they find them. I'll post something when I know more...

Kirk_Allen · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2005, 06:22:06 pm »

Kinda reminds me of an old timer that told me the best hunting story ever.

He said he shot this MONSTER buck. "It had over 20 points. I hit him with my old faithful 30/30. One shot! I was so proud I put my gun across his antlers like a gun rack and held his head up and had my wife take a picture. Well wouldnt you know it, as soon as I set down his head that deer got up and ran off with my rifle dangling in his antlers. I was sick for a whole year. You see, I was hunting the same spot and that deer come by with my gun dangling from that big ol rack, which now had aobut 25 points. I shot him dead this time. Got the buckon the wall and my gun back in the gun cabinet."

I laughed so hard hearing him tell the story that I didnt have the heart to tell him deer shed their antlers every year.

Roxie · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2005, 06:24:51 pm »

"A considerable number of commercially valuable logs are resting on the bottom of the lake which have become waterlogged and have sunk, probably during the past 50 years, since the lake has been used for log storage and movement during that extended period. In addition, there are a number of logs floating submerged beneath the surface which have not yet become sufficiently waterlogged to sink to the bottom."

I found this on a legal posting from Washington State about the ownership of sunken logs. It sounds possible for lumber to be suspended for years, without sinking.
Where is FLA DH when you need him

Jeff · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2005, 06:25:36 pm »

I'm not thinking thaat way at all, I bet the logs do becime a hazard. I just was trying to understand how it happens. We have storms that move stuff around for sure, I would bet ice movement would be a bigger culprit.

Paschale · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2005, 06:39:35 pm »

I found something on the web as well about "neutrally-bouyant" logs that sit just below the surface of the water. They're waterlogged, yet they don't seem to float on the surface, nor sink to the bottom. I found it on a boating safety site. All I can say is that now I'm just really intrigued!

Oh...and in my research on water-logged logs, I first came across the term "deadheaders" as the appropriate term for these logs, thus, explaining Fla_Deadheaders name. See...all along I just thought FDH was a big fan of the Grateful Dead!

Jerry Garcia, RIP.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2005, 07:06:03 pm »

Yes, there are various degrees of bouyancy to the logs depending upon their density. Hardwoods will sink faster than softwoods. Various elements will move them around beneath the water surface, i.e. storms, ice, underwater currents, overhead ship traffic, divers moving them, etc.

Also, some log decks were transported chained to the decks of schooners (lumber hookers) barges, scows, etc. They may break loose over time and float to the surface. I've had bottom logs that were held down by others on top break loose and start floating at different depths. They move quite easily in deep water when broken free. It may be possible for some to occasionally surface at least partially, especially a softwood that was held down by other hardwoods.

Paschale · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2005, 07:12:26 pm »

That's interesting Ron...I recall that all of the logs my friend has retrieved have been pine or some other softwood...I think some hemlocks as well. We might be getting to the bottom of this mystery!

Rockn H · « **Reply #28 on:** February 23, 2005, 07:37:39 pm »

Now yall have me interested. Here in se ark any floating log whether it be cut or eroded is simply considered river salvage. At least local authorities and land owners (seem to treat it as so). Although an ecological group, through a court order, was able to stop one diver from retreiving sinker logs off the bottom. What I,m trying to say is now I have to research and see if our practices are legal here or just overlooked. Anyone know arkansas law?

UrbanLogger · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2005, 07:40:36 pm »

Quote from: Paschale on February 23, 2005, 06:39:35 pm

Oh...and in my research on water-logged logs, I first came across the term "deadheaders" as the appropriate term for these logs, thus, explaining Fla_Deadheaders name. See...all along I just thought FDH was a big fan of the Grateful Dead!

Jerry Garcia, RIP.

I thought the same thing 'til he never responded to any of my allusions . . .

Cedarman · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2005, 08:38:31 pm »

I'll take a guess as to why logs start floating after a storm. First the logs are at near equilibrium with the density of the water. A storm stirs the water up. Water is densest at just a few degrees above freezing I believe. So if a storm stirs cold winter water to the depths of the logs replacing the slightly less dense warmer water, then the logs could start to float. What season of the year do storms dislodge the most logs?

Cedarman · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2005, 08:44:50 pm »

Another thought. If the logs have started to decay just a little, then there may be a small amount of CO2 buildup, thus reducing the density of the log.
The storm moves the log, freeing it to float. If there is very little oxygen then the process could produce methane gas such as in a land fill.

Waiting for the real answer.

Jeff · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2005, 09:53:55 pm »

Cedarman yer pretty smart!

Both sound like acceptable answers. Maybe we should look up bill warren and see what he thinks?

Old joke.

this might help explain.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=1165.0

Tom · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:02:23 pm »

I like Pecan Logs best but peanuts are pretty good too.

DanG · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:22:38 pm »

M R ok, but I just never cared much for cheese logs.

Jeeze, I'm hungry. Think I'll eat some supper.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #35 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:26:41 pm »

Ahhhhh, NOW my expertise is requested, EH

I will try to start with the original question. We do NOT pay footage, stumpage, or any other age. We pay $5500.00 EACH YEAR, + $1500.00 for Liability Insurance, so THE STATE is covered, NOT US.

  We also pay $500.00 for every 5 years, for every 20 mile stretch of river.

  Of course, the Govt. just sits back, regulates the crap out of us, tells us what we can't do, what we SHOULD do. Where we can't log, how we do it, when we do it.

  If a log has a Brand from the guy that cut it down, We MUST drag it in, call the Sheriff, he will ARREST the log, Supposedly search for the legal owner, OR any of his heirs. If that all goes for naught, he then can SELL the log, to pay his expenses for searching for the owner. WE GET the Vaseline, again.

  We have NO rights. Someone can call, because we look suspicious, and the Marine Police, Fish & game Warden, local cops, Marines, Coast Guard and any other glory seeking govt, goldbricker, Can harrass us all they want.

  If a log has been "altered", meaning change it's original appearance, like sharpening for driving as a piling, Cut as a cant, has holes drilled in it, has ANY metal on it OR in it, or any other stupid thing you can think of, we cant take it. If its stuck in the roots of a tree, along the riverbank, even though the tree will eventually fall into the river, we can't take it.

  Anybody want to buy a water logging operation. We CAN tell ya how to get around most of this stuff.

  Because of the Density, there is very little air in the cells of the log. They BARELY float. Like Ron Scott stated, if a raft of logs go down, once the raft breaks apart, from years of submergance, or the Teredo worms eat enough log away, SOME logs CAN re-float, but, just at water level, not bobbing like buoys. Sometimes, with a little wave action, you might see a "VEE" like wake, from where the water washes over the end of the log. Sometimes, the larger end of the log has slightly more "Buoyancy", than the small end, and MIGHT be seen, breaking the surface occasionally.

  I wood bet, that any state that has sinkers, will be looking into getting all the money they can, from anyone trying to make a buck, with "State" logs.

  Hardwood logs probably will not re-float. Logs underwater are not very heavy. A diver can usually lift one end of a 24" dia. log. When you get ready to break the surface, THAT'S when they get heavy.

  Corley 5 should have a good story to post when he gets back home. We had a ball with him, today. Great guy. You will especially appreciate his rendition of "Cat".

My fingers hurt.

Jeff · « **Reply #36 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:31:06 pm »

I'm glad to hear you enjoyed your visit with Greg. Hes a good bud now. Greg lives not to far away as forum members go, only an hour and a half. I really enjoy when ever we get together. In fact, we are about due.

sigidi · « **Reply #37 on:** February 24, 2005, 04:16:53 am »

Wow FDH,

it really sounds like a lot of hassle and outlay for possibly a whole heap of nothing, you got ya underwater gear on top of the already mentioned expenses too.

Do ya make any kind of living out of it? (I'm not scheming to come over and edge you out - I'm fraid of going underwater) but just asking.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #38 on:** February 24, 2005, 07:06:29 am »

No worries, Mate !!! We just do this for sport.

Best way to make1 million $$$ doing something, is, start with 2 million $$$.

ellmoe · « **Reply #39 on:** February 24, 2005, 10:18:42 pm »

Harold/ Ron/ et al,

Thanks for thr replies, information, and speculation!

Being blessed with two teenaged sons, my computer has been "out of service" and I'm just getting back on line. I'll pass this info on, and try to find out why the interest. I don't known the current status of tree salvage in Ga., but it looks like the State will be wanting their "share" ( and maybe then some).
Thanks again.
Mark

Furby · « **Reply #40 on:** February 25, 2005, 01:12:56 am »

Paschale,
Does your friend still have any of the log ends showing the marks?
I think someone here at the forum has mentioned this book before, but you can order it at the library if you want to take a look.

Michigan Log Marks, Their Function And Use During The Great Michigan Pine Harvest by Clifford Allen.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #41 on:** February 25, 2005, 07:05:23 am »

Mark, I would be interested in knowing what they are thinking. There are MANY MANY logs in the St. Marys River, on the Ga., Fl. line.

Paschale · « **Reply #42 on:** February 25, 2005, 01:59:41 pm »

Jason,

He made one of the log ends into a rustic end table/coffee table that still has the mark. He's up in the U.P. though, so I won't see it until this summer.

Dan

ellmoe · « **Reply #43 on:** February 25, 2005, 08:39:21 pm »

Harold,
Work overcame my "free" time today so I did not speak with anyone. If my "brickwall soften head "will remember Monday, I will call them then. I'll let you know what's up.
Mark

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #44 on:** February 25, 2005, 08:56:22 pm »

Thanks, Mark

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Author Topic: "River" log question. Fla. D. ? (Read 3007 times)

Kirk_Allen